Ton-Elena

7 Ton

e: “What is your aim Ton?”

in answering i’ll assume you mean in relation to your little blog here…. in general i would say it has to do with uncovering or revealing the truth… as far as that general aim goes, although we – that’s you and i elena – have different perspectives and different approaches, we are probably not as different as our differences would appear to indicate. but more particularly, in the effort to reveal or uncover truth, here on your blog anyway, i aim in part to try to show you something about yourself which, working in solitude, you would otherwise remain oblivious to… do you know what you don’t realize about yourself ? i approach the uncovering of truth from the inside out as it were and it makes you uncomfortable, i understand… you prefer to approach from the periphery, at a safer distance, i understand that too…. is there a middle ground ? with you i don’t think so, in the past here even during the few times when common ground is reached, you feel threatened and react defensively, you become agitated and aggressive, so i continue to probe underneath “the skin” of the situation to try to get to the source of your reactions… i think of it as acupuncture with words.

knowing things from the inside out is my approach, human beings need to acquire knowledge with their own “I” and not through the eyes of others. a main source of conflict in the world is the fact that many people blindly and uncritically follow various traditions, movements, dogmas and opinions. each individual has a mind and the capacity to differentiate truth from falsehood for herself. If the individual fails to use their capacities and chooses instead to accept without question certain opinions and ideas, either out of admiration for, or fear of those who hold them, then they are neglecting their basic moral responsibility as human beings. that’s what i question elena, more than anything else, when i percieve the “buying into” a creed or an idea “whole cloth” as you have for example with the FOF and as is reflected in your current obsession with the “WE R THE WORLD” and “US” isms — i do question and probe and challenge that way of thinking, not that the idea itself is even necessarily wrong, there is obviously some truth to the “we are one” slogan you are so obsessed by, but that slogan doesn’t fill out the whole picture, and it’s not as absolute as your obsessions try to make it out to be. it’s the sort of obsessive mentality that supports an extreme dogmatic insistence of an idea that i question, not so much the validity of the idea itself. moreover, when a person acts this way, she becomes attached to some particular opinion or tradition and thus intolerant of those who do not share it. such attachments can, in turn, lead to conflict. history has witnessed conflict and even bloodshed over even slight alterations in religious practice, or a minor change in the interpretation of doctrine…. our (that’s you and me elena) little disagreements pale in comparison but they reflect the problem when a dogmatic intransigence is pitted against an attempt at change. personal search for truth enables the individual to know why he or she adheres to a given ideology or doctrine but with an open mind a person may gradually discover different facets of truth and will ultimately come to common understanding and unity, provided she sincerely seeks after truth…. (did you even bother to look at the articles i linked ? such as steiner’s HUMAN AND COSMIC THOUGHT ??). the differences that appear to exist result from attachment to a point of view while at the same time other possibilities are actively negated, shut out. the fact that you imagine yourself to be right and everybody else wrong is the greatest of all obstacles on the path towards unity….

8 Elena

Various points here Ton.

So it seems you have the aim to show me that my conviction that we are one is out of a dogmatic belief that makes me intolerant and yet you’ve attacked me personally for over a month with very low attacks on my persona and I continue not only to tolerate but to welcome your presence here.

Second, I am not trying to convince you of anything while if I don’t obey you, you attack me personally. So there’s a lot more dogmatism in your behavior than in mine.

Third, you expect me to play by your rules, read and answer your questions but you do not answer mine or are interested in what I am interested which makes your presence here questionable.

You assume that my understanding of We are One is an obsession and an slogan but you have not bothered to actually look at my work, see and discuss the actual points in question which discredit the seriousness of your interest or approach.

You are obsessed with your aim of showing me something about myself without seeing anything about your self which makes any dialogue as poor as this one has been.

You state that there is an obsessive, dogmatic mentality here and that I find others are wrong and yet what I’ve been stating both here and in the fofblog (where you treated me so aggressively without my returning that aggression in any way) is that I am presenting these ideas for discussion.

There is nothing dogmatic about that.

The processes that I was going through in my first participation in the fofblog are very different to the processes I am going through now and you dogmatically assume that they are the same. You’ve put a label on me and don’t want to take it off and that’s not only dogmatic but inhuman and belittling as in posting the following.

glibly dismissive

meaning: marked by lack of depth; “glib generalizations”; “a glib response to a complex question, nonchalant, showing little forethought or preparation: offhand : lacking depth and substance : superficial archaic : smooth, slippery : marked by ease and fluency in speaking or writing often to the point of being insincere or deceitfulhttp://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/glib

showing indifference or disregard; “a dismissive shrug”; “the firm is dismissive of the competitor’s product”; haughty, disdainful, or supercilious: an arrogant and cavalier attitude toward others…. stopping to associate with; “they took dismissive action after the third violation” wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Showing disregard, indicating rejection, serving to dismiss
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dismissive
dismissiveness – a form of denial, characterized by either passively showing indifference or disregard, or actively dismissing or rejecting ideas or evidence en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dismissiveness
dismissively – In a dismissive manner en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dismissively

You try to impose the idea that I am dismissive of you but what I am dismissing is the poverty of your posts, not you, while what you are dismissing is the content of my posts so that you can gnaw away at your obsession about my state. You got a kick out of your position of power in the fofblog attacking a person that was in a very vulnerable position and that makes you sadly inhuman Ton.

If you wish, I’ll post all the posts looking at that whole blog again so that you can take a look at your self but you’re in so much denial about that that you don’t even dare to look. Don’t you think it is revealing enough how you avoid to look at it and speak up for yourself?

As far as your aim of showing me something about my self, since I am not willing to take the picture you wish to give me because I think you are a seriously dishonest man, I think you would do well giving up your intention and letting me continue work on what I wish to work.

I find you dishonest in your unwillingness to review your actions and what led to my banning.
In your insistence on ignoring so many facts
and not only dishonest but inhuman in your insistence on my being according to you, mentally ill.
I find you outright abusive in your aim to think that YOU TON are in any way superior to me to be showing me anything about my self that you are yourself not suffering of. For over a month now, the only one belittling anyone here is you and that alone is a sign of your malfunctioning.

So please take a lot of your own medicine and see if you can come up with a better aim to be here because that one stinks no matter how much perfume you put on it.

You have no idea how well I understand what you are saying.

You think that I am not prepared to say what I am saying and I think that in my innocence I am Oh so prepared to say what I am saying.

I say it with all my heart and soul and that is enough.

If you can’t take it I am sorry for you. You think people need robes to speak but I speak as I am.

You think people have to do something to be something and I know people are something without having to prove anything.

You expect me to do all your research but are unwilling to look at my research. What you are doing is feeding your self on trying to impose your power and authority on me and what you’re so frustrated about is that it can’t happen, I am not willing to satisfy you no matter how hard you try.

You have no idea how clear I am about people like you after seventeen years in a cult.

9 Ton

You see Ton,
When you belittle people with sentences like this one:

in answering i’ll assume you mean in relation to your little blog here…

there can be no honest dialogue, so why don’t you stay in the fofblog where they approve of you so thoroughly?

10 Ton

it is what it is elena, and when i tell it like it is, you find it offensive. this blog of yours is primarily one person who ‘contributes’ — that’s you elena. sometimes i stop in to leave a comment and very infrequently someone else might leave a comment… i called it a “little blog” and you are offended ??!! and if i lied and called it a ‘big blog’ would that soothe your fragile ego ? this is yet another example of why you couldn’t manage over at the fofblog and why you need to ‘work’ in isolation… but a problem with isolation is that no one questions or challenges your presumptions and this condition can lead to illusions and misconceptions… i know that you are more comfortable in an ‘ivory tower’ situation and i know what you find so offensive about me is that i challenge you…. and you don’t like it, it makes you angry, it offends you, you become defensive and you lash-out… why elena ? i don’t ask ‘why’ expecting an answer from you, but it is something you should examine for yourself, for your own peace of mind.

11 Ton

e: “You have no idea how clear I am about people like you after seventeen years in a cult.”

that’s a big part of the problem here elena, you “see through your glass darkly” and it dims your vision. take it from someone who has been there and back… it will take time and effort to release the baggage you’re currently carrying… keep hope alive.

12 Elena

When you can’t share anything positive about someone else or with someone else, it is you who are 13 Tfeeding on the darkness and trying to spread it.

13 Ton

when you look through a glass darkly, you see only darkness… face the light and the shadows fall behind.
keep hope alive