Part 5- Ton's similarities to Robert Burton- Pause and reconstruction

Part 5

Ton continues, here is the whole post so that we don’t lose our selves in the little quotes:

69. ton - April 8, 2010

elena,

i think we’re definitely not “on the same platform” — but that’s ok. no need to be sarcastic, clarity is an ongoing lifelong process, we both know that, and no need for disingenuousness, if you truly meant what you said, and were to “carefully meditate on it” then there would be no reason for me to elaborate (a hint: when you “carefully meditate” too quickly, you miss the point). regarding “isms” — do your “homework,” another ongoing lifelong process — i offered a few indications of where i’ve looked for a “bigger picture” (here are a couple more… thomas berry, wendell berry), but as far as that goes (“the bigger picture” that is), the possibilities are endless and it depends entirely on you. you see elena, we have this wonderful informational resource literally at our fingertips but what do we do with it? like most things that are used it can also be ab-used, unfortunately there are too many examples, but one that comes to mind in this connection is:

http://thefellowshipoffriends.wikispaces.com/message/list/home there are many others… think about it, or don’t, but consider this; IF you think you already “know it all” and you’re unwilling to consider other perspectives, THEN you’re not going to be interested in what’s potentially available, and of course we all have our little personal agenda to attend to… but you know all this already… right? speaking generally, one aim of “self-examination” is to “get over yourself” and this should at least free you up and point you in the direction of a “bigger picture.” i hope this helps… otherwise, i gladly leave the soapbox to you.

 regarding “isms” — do your “homework,”

NOTE: This is very interesting here and Elena, may I say, is such an innocent idiot. He’s playing around with her like a cat and a mouse without her realizing it. So first he claims that all isms are doctrines of some kind not to be followed and when he’s asked to give an answer from his own self, he won’t because Elena needs to read all the doctrines from the authors he is presenting to do her “homework”

Note from Elena Ton: you’re a sick bully. 

another ongoing lifelong process

NOTE from Elena: and look at that gem: “another ongoing lifelong process” this guy really didn’t miss a day in the Fellowship or any of Robert’s notes. He’s actually very good at it, too bad I can’t congratulate you Ton.

NOTE: This truly is quite amazing because it begins to prove how “infected” people who have been in cults actually become and how they continue to reproduce the same patterns, behaviors and ideologies that they submitted themselves to for so long. THAT is one of the reasons that I find this analysis so necessary. We’ve got to get right down to the roots of this sickness.

So to the point: what we are seeing in this post is that Ton begins to use similar ideas to those used by Robert Burton:

1. another ongoing lifelong process

2. clarity is an ongoing lifelong process

What he’s obviously implying here is that Elena would need a lifelong process to be where he would “approve” her. By now, the discussion has obviously turned into a sickening game between “Ton the all knowing” and “Elena, the ignorant idiot who cannot perceive it herself and needs a lifelong work on herself to make it” and he continues:

— i offered a few indications of where i’ve looked for a “bigger picture” (here are a couple more… thomas berry, wendell berry), but as far as that goes (“the bigger picture” that is), the possibilities are endless and it depends entirely on you. you see elena, we have this wonderful informational resource literally at our fingertips but what do we do with it? like most things that are used it can also be ab-used, unfortunately there are too many examples, but one that comes to mind in this connection is:

NOTE: Is it not amazing? Just like Robert Burton he places out all his “conscious beings” that would need to be read for Elena to have a conversation with him without his belittling her and just like Robert Burton he beautifully rounds it all up by saying

“It depends entirely on you”

WOW! These are real gems. Those reading this one day must realize that beyond Ton and I and our mutual difficulties what is crystallized here is a set of mechanisms that were used systematically in the Fellowship of Friends Cult and that are again being used by Ton against Elena. Elena represents an individual with a voice of her own and Ton is trying to put her down no matter the cost. Elena has a voice of her own to a certain extent but is naïve and vulnerable enough to keep looking for the possibility of participation in the group. She unconsciously submits to the manipulation with the same hope that she had when she joined a cult: that she would be able to participate.

Ton continues:

http://thefellowshipoffriends.wikispaces.com/message/list/home there are many others… think about it, or don’t, but consider this; IF you think you already “know it all” and you’re unwilling to consider other perspectives, THEN you’re not going to be interested in what’s potentially available, and of course we all have our little personal agenda to attend to… but you know all this already… right? speaking generally, one aim of “self-examination” is to “get over yourself” and this should at least free you up and point you in the direction of a “bigger picture.” i hope this helps… otherwise, i gladly leave the soapbox to you.

NOTE: so what Ton is pointing out here is that Elena already thinks that she knows it all. He plays around with her stating she’s unwilling to consider other perspectives and that the outcome is already fixed. The end is magisterial:

i hope this helps… otherwise, i gladly leave the soapbox to you.

He robes his self with the helping hand and subsequently attacks her for the soapbox that she’s in consistently trying to create doubt in Elena about Elena.

Let’s make a pause and consider other things.

Note by Elena: Let’s suppose that beyond all this nitty gritty of language, what Ton is trying to tell Elena is that she comes back to the blog and presents a new set of ideas or similar ideas to those she had presented in her previous participation with new arguments that she’s been researching. We all know another of the final arguments against Elena was that she behaved as though she was Joan of Arc. She said things as if she knew them. And what Ton is trying to tell Elena is “you’re not Joan of Arc, try to get off that pedestal and consider all these other arguments”. This would of course be very valid but my question here is: Why doesn’t anyone in the fofblog including Ton, take up Elena’s arguments and contest them?

Is it because they cannot logically contest them?

There is another question being fought here, a very interesting one which is: Suppose Elena were right in what she’s presenting, does that mean that would necessarily have to follow her?

Do people have to follow those who are right or isn’t this complete conversation about cults and what Elena has been standing up for, precisely about the fact that the individual must stand up for him and herself and not follow anyone else blindly?

There are many subtle problems in the questions that poses.

One of the questions is that although Elena might have been “right” about very many things, things that she pointed out from the beginning and that she fought against and that gradually disappeared from the fofblog. In her questioning of people’s behavior many people changed their behavior in relation to that particular act but the animosity against Elena kept growing and Elena, being far from being an enlightened perfect being answered with equal animosity against many. That animosity is very clear before Elena was banned. Laughing in their faces was the final deed! Laughing at the idea that they had been so patient tolerating her and telling them how patient she’d been tolerating them. Why would they ever forgive her?

So the subsequent facts we have are that she indeed apologizes and returns to the blog and tries to present her questions with better arguments but Ton soon takes care of taking care of her. He feels rather well prepared. In his participation in Elena’s blog, which could be easily read if anyone can bother to, he has convinced himself that Elena is sick and that she can be driven out of her convictions fairly easily. What is he really trying to do? He is supposed to be trying to convince Elena that she is sick and that she needs to work on herself not to be sick. He clearly doesn’t really care about any of Elena’s arguments, what he’s trying to accomplish is putting Elena in her place or what he considers her place to be. Her sickness is feeling that she’s right. Her sickness, if I understand Ton, is that she’s got an ego the size of the Sun! So what he sets out to do is to convince Elena that her ego is as small as a lice and that she doesn’t have a right to think she’s right. So his argument is filled with tools to destroy Elena’s sense of herself and when he doesn’t accomplish it, the fofblogmoderator bans her!!!!

It’s quite a play!!

End of part five