121. ton - February 26, 2011 [Edit]
Elena: “I can hear you!! Wow! Congratulations Ton! Thank you for that. It is lovely to hear you speak about what you actually think.”
on the contrary elena, it is i who should be congratulating you… after all it is “lovely to hear” that something i’ve posted here actually got through to you. finally you’re able to acknowledge another human being — that makes you more of a human being in turn… but your acknowledgment is shot through with patronizing condescension and one-upsmanship again. now i have to ask: is the patronizing condescension intentional or unconscious… is this “congratulations ton” really just another backhanded insult? you see elena, while all this time i’ve been posting what i “actually think,” you are still dismissing that fact with another dismissive statement…. think about it.
so does this new tone from you represent movement and progress? i have my own misgivings as far as that goes…. you yourself say you’re “not greatly optimistic.” maybe you suffer from manic depression and you are on an upward swing of your mood cycle ? anyway, when i came by to offer a slightly different take on this idea that ‘culture is not our friend,’ the paradox of imagining the individual without culture came to mind — i.e. where would “we” be without culture… but what i found was another “dismissal” from you (this is ignorance — i.e. ignoring). and later you send me an email which by turns is an exercise in self-inflation and on the other hand it is groveling and begging my forgiveness because apparently the “lights” flickered on for a moment and you saw something about yourself. you don’t need my forgiveness elena, and please don’t beg, it’s demeaning to you and i don’t play that game. you see, i’m used to exercises in futility, i have a lot of practice — i’m sure you can tell by my endurance/persistence and that has kept me somewhat engaged here thus far. i’ve thought i could help you but you do not accept this, you ‘hear’ only what you want to, and in the process you deny me as an individual, you dismiss almost everything i’ve ever “said” here… and now the light finally goes on for you and i’m supposed to think you’ve changed your tune? i know what to expect from you elena, since you are already admittedly and seemingly proud of being “a closed book,” i have to ask myself again the question you’ve been asking: why bother? but at least you’re actually able to admit to your habit of shutting out the other (me)… although we still haven’t gottent to the bottom of why you engage in this type of behavior. this shutting out of another is a form of denial which you have now finally recognized…. at least for the moment.
elena: “Your thoughts on culture and the six billion people stepping on each other and kicking each other’s teeth is perhaps very appropriate for someone in your situation. Is it really like that for you?”
really elena, i posted this as one possible point of view, intended as both an illustration and as an antidote to the silly and dangerous idealism postulated in the empty mantra you constantly drone on about — “we are one.” think about it: if one person has to suffer to enrich another, then don’t “we” all suffer — without exception? if we are “one” isn’t this true? reflect on this favorite idea you’ve adopted, that “we are one” — now if this is the case, then if someone is being kicked in the teeth — and you know this is happening all the time elena, even though it may not be in your own backyard it is in fact happening all over the planet — then aren’t you, and i, aren’t “we all” the kickers and the kickees? come on elena, are you floating so far above the earth plane that you fail to recognize your own part and complicity?! are you too blind to see this… this is why you cannot speak for the collective “we” — it merely serves the blind spots you do not yet recognize, it is a “buffer” to seeing parts of yourself. you try to come off in this post as if you are above it all, most of this post has a rosy patina to it but it’s covering the obvious… it’s another attempt at one-upsmanship another habit you have of trying to outdo, outshine another… your need to feel you have an upper hand is to support the notion in your own mind that you are somehow superior to others…. i suggest this really has to do with underlying feelings of inferiority — we all have these feelings elena, i don’t mean to single you out. all of these questions to me in this post 119 you can answer for yourself if you just take time to reflect… and in the process of reflecting you can maybe see where you are replacing possibilities for understanding with assumption… the unexamined life is…
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122. Elena - February 26, 2011 [Edit]
How very sad Ton, here you are again talking about me and not the subjects in question. It’s too bad. I cannot change the way you choose to perceive what I write. The long history of disagreement that we’ve had with each other makes the bias too strong and you are keen on finding weaknesses rather than simply taking it for what it is.
I understand that you can’t understand the idea of We are One as I try to convey it. Words won’t do to make it happen, that is a limitation of words when talking about a realization of being. We simply try to convey an experience but whether others are empathetic or adverse to it is their privilege. Well, at least it’s beautiful for me, I’m sorry you cannot share the beauty.
Your idea that if We are One and people are getting hurt then we all suffer is not quite the way I’ve experienced this. Our oneness is beyond the phenomenical world and doesn’t depend on our states of being within it. It is not reduced by our suffering or joys but it is actualized by our love towards each other.
I don’t agree with you that when one begs to be forgiven one is diminished. On the contrary, being sorry for a mistake is wonderfully relieving whether the other person has the grace to forgive or not. I made a mistake not reading the whole post and listening to your attempt to address the issue but the rest of your post was not worth reading and in this one you fall in the same pattern which I find truly distasteful.
You are not my therapist Ton. Why don’t you go and talk about those misgivings in the fofblog Ton? They’ll love you for them there and you don’t need to try to convince them like you do here. It is a well known buffer that when people don’t wish to hear the truth from somebody they call them crazy. You can call me crazy all you like and point out what you think are my misgivings but I don’t buy it anymore love.
No matter how much you neglect to value what I have worked on here I know its value and if its only good enough for me, that is plenty.
Do you not find it very sad that you have to deny everything someone else works on so that you can justify your mistakes towards her? Are you afraid that what I say may actually be valued by enough people that your role will be exposed? Is that why you come here since you find nothing else of value? Do you think that if you convince me that nothing of what I say and do here is of value I’ll stop writing and so attract no other attention ever? You’re so much like Robert it’s truly sickening. He also lives on convincing people that everything they do is of no worth and that they can only do what, when and how he tells them to do it. It’s mind control and I already learnt the process Ton so what makes you think that you can apply it again? What is interesting about it is that properly studied, what we’ll find in the long run is that these are specific techniques meant to create feelings of self-worthlessness in the person they are addressed towards but unfortunately for you, the more you try them on me, the less efficient they become and the more you reveal your self and your agenda here.
I do find it amazing how much you like to lie here for a public that doesn’t exist but you are so afraid of it that you put up the show anyway and write lies like this one:
“and later you send me an email which by turns is an exercise in self-inflation and on the other hand it is groveling and begging my forgiveness because apparently the “lights” flickered on for a moment and you saw something about yourself.”
You put it as if I had sent you a different email with all that but the fact is that I sent you exactly the same post I posted here just so that you would read it soon enough and know that I wanted it to be clear and personal but in your crooked mind you turned it against me and yourself. That is the pity of negativity: that it turns against the doer much more powerfully than who it is addressed to. May you be spared from it on my behalf and learn about your self without the need to suffer.
Bye Ton.
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123. ton - February 27, 2011 [Edit]
you are a subject in question elena…. and i know you keep trying to change the subject. i agree that the short history of disagreement between us does make your bias toward me too strong to hear anything i say, your habit of denial combined with the one-upsmanship is deeply ingrained. what do you suppose you have to prove ? and to whom ?
just as hate, anger, and negative emotions manifest here in the “phenomenical world” (your term) so too does the “immaterial” aspect of love manifest “phenomenologically.” so i really don’t know what you are talking about when you say “we are one” and yet you try to remove it from “phenomenological” reality… me thinks she speaks with a forked tongue.
i think asking for forgiveness is different than groveling… maybe that was not your intention but that’s how it “sounded” — the email you sent had the subject heading — “I beg you forgive me.”
elena: “It is a well known buffer that when people don’t wish to hear the truth from somebody they call them crazy.”
you’ve called yourself crazy here many times over and although you’ve provided plenty of evidence to support that assertion i’ve never said it about you… i do think you need support to sort things out, but i think we all need that, so you are no one special in that regard. are you manic/depressive elena ? and here is another question for you elena; what is the function of the buffer when someone repeatedly calls herself “crazy” while claiming that someone else is calling her “crazy” ?
elena: “Do you not find it very sad that you have to deny everything someone else works on so that you can justify your mistakes towards her? Are you afraid that what I say may actually be valued by enough people that your role will be exposed?”
this has me scratching my head a little… although i have probably not praised your work here as you would have liked, i have “denied” very little of what you present, i’m actually in agreement with a lot of it, and i’ve said this before… just because i’m not singing your praises with ringing endorsements doesn’t mean i disagree with everything you do here… on the contrary, and i’ve said this before but i guess your fragile ego needs a lot of boosting so i’ll say it again, i agree tacitly with the posts i’m not commenting on which means MOST of your posts i do see the point and a purpose… where i strongly disagree is when you direct your veiled or overt attacks toward me and when you lump your idea of me into one of the narrow categories colored by your mental blinders…. for example again you say “You’re so much like Robert it’s truly sickening….etc. ” this is the limited framework through which you experience the world, i am sorry for you in this regard but i continue to hold out hope that your mind will clear itself of it’s turbidity.
elena: “I do find it amazing how much you like to lie here for a public that doesn’t exist but you are so afraid of it that you put up the show anyway and write lies like this one…” elena, this is plainly delusional thinking. i write this only for you, who else would this be for elena?! i have no expectation that anyone else will see it…. this idea of an imaginary audience is your own grandiose delusions projected onto me — you are the one who acts like she is writing for an imaginary audience here– your insistence on speaking for “we” the people…. etc. my point is to get the “conversation” back down from your usual inflated perspective, to one which starts from an individual reality… pie in the sky might taste good but it’s all empty calories when it comes down to tangible changes.
elena: “You put it as if I had sent you a different email with all that but the fact is that I sent you exactly the same post I posted here…”
i never said otherwise elena, although you did leave out the subject heading “i beg you forgive me.” you are being very defensive in this… i think i understand why…. and then you become offensive when you say : “…but in your crooked mind you turned it against me…” look elena, i’m merely reflecting you back to you. if you are offended by it then you should examine that reaction and consider the source.
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124. ton - February 27, 2011 [Edit]
elena,
i’m sorry you think so poorly of me. i’m not going to change your opinion by traveling the paths we’ve been down before… with you, “tough love” and persistence doesn’t work… i’m sorry that i am unable to help you.
good bye
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125. Elena - February 27, 2011 [Edit]
Tough love never worked with anyone Ton, it is not love in its principle, just authoritarism trying to impose itself, fascism in the realm of the personal. Thank you for realizing that and going your way. Be well. If you ever really wish to help anyone, sit with them without an agenda. We re-member our Oneness when we sit in each other's presence Bare with their anger and their pain. Allow them to scream and cry without judging them and embrace them from the confines of your heart until they recover theirs. I hope I too have learnt to do this here..
