Ton and Elena in third person dialogue!

Ton Dear,

You’re actually talking to me, not to a third person called Elena. You can say you Elena, you don’t need this strange third person use. When I used it recently I thought you were gone, since you'd said good-bye.

re: post 88

i would agree that the

anonymity of the situation in cyberspace does influence and contribute to what is being “said” and how it’s said… as well as how it’s interpreted… which on the positive side can also lead to a more direct honesty… some people are offended by directness, some people are offended by honesty, they prefer to have their ass tickled with lies, some folks are simple cranks. i would also agree that we come into this world trusting and with time and experience learn not to trust… there is a lesson in this… when dealing with the “real world” as it is, and not an imaginary pie in the sky, balance must be struck between trusting and questioning, between “faith” and doubt. can a better world than this be imagined? absolutely, but another balancing act is required in dealing with reality while holding onto one’s dreams and aspirations… that happens to be the state of affairs as it turns out, for better and for worse…. i think after we’ve lived for a while in what can be called “the real world,” if we’re fortunate enough we learn the lesson that blind faith and too much trust can lead to problems for the individual — the cult situation for example. i would say that during the process of living in this world as we find it, one learns to trust more in oneself, that’s where trust begins.

elena says: “…a fake name confirms the idea that we are ashamed of our selves and our lives and hide behind strange names to hurt others…” although elena may be “ashamed” of herself in this context, i don’t think she can accurately paint the rest of humanity with that brush, as is her habit when she assumes to speak for “we.” i can offer a different point of view regarding elena’s statement: “hiding behind a fake name” — you see, elena could have interpreted the usage of a “fake name” differently but she didn’t because that suits her agenda, more justification and rationalization, more fuel for the fire — i find her comments at the end of post 88 to be somewhat duplicitous… more on this later in this post.

Elena: I’m afraid Ton that

you don’t understand the context I’m speaking about. I am here referring to the author’s generalization that people hiding behind fake names tend to allow more aggression out than they would were they not using a fake name.-------------

in my own case, i go by

“ton” in cyberspace as well as in “the real world” — you see, it’s a “nickname.” just so it’s understood, a nickname is a descriptive name given in place of, (or in addition to) the “official” name of a person, place or thing. a nickname can also be the familiar or truncated form of the proper name, which may sometimes be used simply for convenience. a nickname can be used as a sign of affection between those with a close emotional bond, a term of endearment. the term ‘diminutive name’ refers to nicknames that convey smallness, hence something regarded with affection or familiarity, when referring to a child for example. the diminutive use can also imply contempt (a usage apparently more to elena’s liking), distinction between the two is often blurred. use of a nickname can be a way to tell someone they are special and that you love them, a form of endearment or amusement. a nickname is sometimes considered desirable, symbolising a form of acceptance, but it can also be used to ridicule and in the past elena has in fact attempted to ridicule me in this way by conflating “ton” with “burton” — yet another attempt to attack and insult me. 

Elena: This is true Ton but

I am not going to repeat here the myriad times you’ve offended me and continue wasting our times. Your imaginary victim picture hardly suits you Ton.------------

of course as elena conveys

in post 88, she is more inclined toward interpreting through the lens of ridicule and insult which says something about her, it says nothing about the person whom she tries to impune and insult with suggested implications of cowardice when she says “hiding behind a fake name….” etc

more generally:

this little project here

which elena misrepresents in the title banner by proudly declaring it as “the public square,” is in reality all about elena. although elena has strayed from focusing on the “topic” as described in her “mission statement” at the top of the page, this straying is understandable given the state of current events… and it’s also understandable given the fact that this project is hers and hers alone, the “conversation” goes wherever she wants it to go, everything here is filtered through her and therefore in one way or another, this is blog is literally all about her. any topic here would of course be fine by me, i’m not complaining about the “straying,” after all, i’m merely a curious observer, a pedestrian who occasionally wanders through this so-called “public square.” but i will say that the way elena conducts things here in her personal playpen is more than a little duplicitous. she of course rules her little fiefdom and so she holds the ultimate “trump cards,” she is able to justify and rationalize what she does on the one hand, whereas on the other, if someone else does similarly, she’s inclined to attack them or administer some form of censorship… often it’s a simple flippant dismissal of the other, but more often than not, it’s a defensive attack which can escalate to threats of banishment or actual banishing from the realm of the queen when her displeasure becomes extreme.

Elena: I am sorry that

you’re trapped in the same discourse over and over again. You could move out of it if only you really wanted to.--------

on the positive side, i must say that although i appreciate the kinder gentler version of elena recently on display, she’s obviously most comfortable here in isolation. but i’ve learned not to trust even this isolated version, her direct attacks on me have for the time being, become more oblique; now she’s treating me as if i were merely a curious specimen rather than another human being and her equal… in 84 she says: “Is that Ton’s problem too? I ask him to speak from his self and he cannot. He has never been able to nor were most of the people in the fofblog.”

you see, she is unable recognize or to acknowledge me when i “speak from myself” — she simply and adamantly refuses to and she will once again refuse to acknowledge it when this is posted… why is that ? one might wonder. after reading her query into “ton’s problem” an old saying came to mind, to paraphrase: why worry about a speck of sawdust in the eye of your friend when you have a log in your own ? it’s a way for elena to ignore and deflect her own problem — which is essentially what this blog is about.

Elena: Here you have an

interesting point worth discussing. What I mean with the idea that you never speak for your self nor did most in the fofblog is that you’re always merely reacting. Here is this beautiful, complex and at the same time terrible world and all you’ve done in what could be a dialogue is react to what I say, try to put me down without addressing what I am saying and never actually talk about your self from your own heart and honesty. I am far from perfect Ton but that’s O.K. with me. Not having to pretend that I am any better than I am is good enough for me but you and most of you people in the fofblog had to hide behind other people’s quotes to stand up for an inch of what you believed just like Bobby taught us. We weren’t good enough to express our selves from our selves and you’ve done that all these years. Isn’t it good that you’re at least coming out when actually arguing with me? That is a wonderful aspect of an argument: that the I comes out of its cocoon and says: I exist! I do like that when people exist!---------

although i have contributed

to this little project of hers on numerous occasions and in various ways, elena still does not recognize the fact.

Elena: Oh no Ton, there you

are mistaken and the Alzheimer must be getting at you because I am very clear about what your agenda has always been here:

1. Ignore Elena through such acts as:

1. Don’t be personal with her. Be distant

2. Don’t talk as an equal but as a superior “treating” her

3. Send her loads of homework to read so that she is directly or indirectly dominated by my will (Ton’s) implying that I know better things than she knows but never actually letting her know what I know or think.

4. Use particularly hurting darts so that in her vulnerable condition she will react with anger and behave like a lunatic insulting and raving so that we can justify having banned her from the fofblog and my participation here and the lowlesness of it can also be justified.

The sad thing about all

this Ton is that you don’t even realize that you’re doing these things, you just do them mechanically like Robert and all people who feel superior to others do. ----------

Ton:  in fact she refuses to acknowledge me

as an individual. rather than recognize me as an individual and treat me with a modicum of respect and dignity, she attacks, or simply dismisses me.

Elena: Strange that you should be feeling now just as you’ve treated me for such a long time. The opposite of the spectrum is a law isn’t it? Does it surprise you to be getting a taste of your own medicine? Will it help you learn anything?----------

to her, i am at best an interruption and an irritant but mostly she treats me as if i were a non-entity. you see she cannot recognize me as an individual, she forgoes the effort of differentiating and attempting to understand another individual’s point of view by filtering it through the mindset that “we are one” — and so when someone disagrees or offers another point of view, it does not compute, she does not understand how another might disagree with her point of view or and she gets defensive and goes on the attack or simply dismisses the other as “invalid.” when everyone gets lumped into that convenient little box of hers, there’s no need to recognize or acknowledge the individual… this seemingly intractable mindset comes from many, many years of cult indoctrination. rather than treat me respectfully as an individual, she repeatedly lumps me into one of her little category boxes tucked neatly away in her mind; for example she repeatedly conflates me with some of the demons from her past which continue to haunt her psyche… that’s an easy thing for her and apparently it’s what she needs to do, it simultaneously fuels and justifies her own lack of civility in this case. it would seem this sort of fuel is what she needs to feed the demons within her — in this respect i’m reminded of another old adage: “do unto others…” so when i’m satisfied she’s stopped using me in this manner, then i will stop with her. then and only then, when she is able to relate to me as an equal, maybe we can have a civil human conversation — but i won’t hold my breath.

Elena: Oh Dear Ton, I don’t

even know what it is you disagree with since I’ve never heard you actually talk about anything I am talking about from your self. You put these authors for homework and then say I disagree with you, how strange!---------

otherwise if i visit here

and see that she’s attempting even ‘obliquely’ to goad or incite or conflate me with others or otherwise to take me ‘in vain’ or for use in her own agenda and devices, i will give back to her what i get from her “in spades” as it’s said in my country… this in the hope that one day the lights may finally go on and she will see herself and the error of this attitude toward me as another individual. of course she will no doubt ex-communicate me again before this hope comes to fruition.

i say ‘duplicitous’ because although on occasion i do contribute in kind, that is, not always kindly (especially when i’m attacked), but “in kind” meaning “in a similar fashion to” her own way of doing things here; i.e. cutting and pasting information which i feel may be germane to the topic of “discussion” along with the occasional personal “editorial” comment about said materials…. although i on occasion contribute in this way, elena refuses to recognize that fact, in fact she denies it, dismisses it, deletes it, manipulates and attacks the suggestion — as i expect she will continue to do yet again. you see, elena is not really interested in a conversation here, she’s never been interested in the opinion of another, much less is she interested in a civil conversation. if another attempts to contribute, she’s interested in either playing the game of “one-upsmanship” (the attempting to outdo or to keep one jump ahead of a friend or enemy engaged in a round of verbal one–upmanship), or she engages in denial, dismissal or an outright defensive attack which sets the stage for creating of more psycho-drama.

Elena: My Dear Ton, I

answered your author’s posts on consciousness with a long post that you’ve neglected to address and now come up with these. You definitely are strange. I am very sorry that you cannot see it but ignoring what I write is just another way of undermining me. Unfortunately for your agenda, I've become pretty immune to it.-------

in fact her own opinions are all that matter to her, she’s a closed book, she’s admitted as much and although it’s kind of sad, that’s the way she wants it and it’s fine with me… but she really should get down off of that high horse of hers and get a grip on her delusions, her grandiosity, her superiority complex, her vitriol, her attacks and insults… she should get a grip not so much for herself because she’s obviously too smugly self-satisfied to do anything about it, but at least she should get a grip for the sake of others: she should acknowledge certain facts about herself and her haughty behavior toward others. if she really and truly lived the truth of the catch phrases she endlessly repeats (as if repetition will make it more credible coming from her), then she would be less complacent about her own “madness” and more inclined to do something practical about it in an effort to actually help make the world a better place for all — one individual at a time, beginning with herself. but elena is happiest eating her pie in the sky , it’s so much easier than actually getting down and dirty to do something practical in order to effect a change, and the first place to start is the last place she’ll consider, i.e. her own mind. (by the way, qualifying her “madness” as she does in her post by using parentheses, is simply a denial and a way to reaffirm her own comfort and self-satisfaction…. had she the courage and clarity of conviction in this, she would simply acknowledge and embrace her madness for what it is, no parentheses required… qualifying it with the use of parentheses indicates that she still does not recognize it for what it is, much less does she truly embrace it… and yes of course there can be a certain kind of power, even a sort of “crazy wisdom” in madness; there is no shame in that but the culturally conditioned shame of a perceived ‘stigma’ is not an easy thing to overcome).

from repeated experiences of her attacks i’ve learned not to trust this janus faced shrew, the kinder, gentler elena is only a mask for something which lurks just below the surface waiting to pounce, something that is mostly unpleasant and this is the madness which she dismisses, denies or deflects, blaming her reactions on others. she’s likely to show this side of her character when she’s treated to a bit of her own medicine as i’ve attempted to do in this post — in this case, again i’ve attempted to amplify and reflect back to her how she’s treating me here. not being able to, or not caring enough to “converse” with another as an equal, instead she talks around a person as if he were not “in the room,” as if she’s finally rid of him and now he’s treated not only as an inferior, as a nonentity, but also as a specimen to be utilized for examination and then dismissed and disposed of as an example to be held up for scorn and ridicule. generally, it’s ironic how often a person wishing to show how much s/he knows, really only demonstrates ignorance… which is a good thing if one is able to learn from it instead of repeating it.

Elena: Indeed Ton, we are

medicine to each other for wasn’t that what you did in the Fellowship blog? Hunt me down with all your knowledge about this and that and how I would not understand it no matter how much I tried, dialoguing with you over and over again to see if you people would accept me until I realized that that was not in the agenda?

It’s alright Ton if you cannot love me and I don’t love you either although you’ve been so persistent in coming here, you’ve put your foot in it so badly, you’ve made so many mistakes, that I am sorry for you, deep down we know each other well, we’re like a marriage gone sour in which two people who honestly tried to love each other only managed to hurt each other.  We are, in the end, good representatives of our times------

so elena has a clear

choice: to declare a truce with me, make peace by stopping the abuse of me,

stop treating me as an inferior, stop using me as an example for demonization… or she can expect more reflecting back of this treatment in kind. of course she can always play her trump card, excommunicate me again and then abuse and insult me without questioning, interruption, or interference from me.

Elena: I am not fighting with you Ton, I am defending myself from you which is very different. I’ve become fairly good at it over time. After a while it gets easier to tolerate people attacking one. I should be a professional after the fofblog, you and the others here.

So the question again is, what are you doing here. The rules are the same as before:

1. Try to speak from yourself

2. Deal with kindness and decency between us and concern yourself mostly with the things we are discussing about a specific subject.

3. Attach your thinking to the author’s you present

4. Answer the posts that are sent to you on the subjects,

in fact, you have not answered my post on consciousness, nor many others so if you really are not interested in what I post why bother to come here to tell us that I am wrong, wrong, mad, etc again and again?

I am wrong, mad, etc again and again in your eyes Ton and that is alright with me.

Take good care of your self.

Thanks for the post. I was having a quiet Sunday and enjoyed the interaction.

It is also fine with me that you don’t trust my kindness. It is good not to think that because I am kind I cannot be firm, aggressive or violent when necessary. I am simply feeling alright with myself and fighting you or anyone else because you find me disagreeable is not worth it. You have a right to your opinion about me and everything else, just as I have a right to be free of you when I consider you harmful to my well being. So do you: you can just leave. Isn’t that what you’ve been threatening over and over again for years? Wasn't that why you had me banned? Because I wasn't good enough for you people? Because you thought you had to teach me a lesson of subserviance? You thought that without you I could not write but I do not need people cheering me on to speak about the things that matter to me.

That too is an aspect of freedom.

Be well Ton. Forgive me if I don't answer you again another similar post . This has become a vicious circle and I am not interested in its viciousness. Should you wish to address the post on consciousness and dialogue about what we actually started to talk about that would be welcome. Should you not wish to that too is fine but the victim dialogue is over. I have not been your victim since I was banned of the fofblog for the second time, that actually freed me from it for all I wanted was to apologize for my excesses there and I did and you're not my victim here, the ridiculousness of the figure is not worth my attention.