Us and music! Ton-Elena

67. ton - April 21, 2010 [Edit]
“We happen to be in this conversation together…”

what you are presuming when you refer to “the trap WE’RE in…” is that you can speak for another…. and as for this conversation “WE happen to be in,” it seems that you would much prefer a “conversation” where you could freely presume to speak for others, no questions asked. you’re only half right elena, i agree that YOU are “in a trap.” but at least you’ve changed your mind enough to finally acknowledge that you’re actually in a conversation… that would appear to be progress (?)

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68. Elena - April 21, 2010 [Edit]
Take your time Ton, as much as you need. If you need to read this again please do so. Maybe you’ll actually hear what it says. I wish you well.

64. Elena – April 20, 2010 [Edit]
Hi Ton,

The more I look at the trap we’re in, the clearer it becomes that a descending discussion is marked by trespassing people’s boundaries on the personal sphere. That when we become defensive-aggressive, we tread on each other’s being, like cattle run lose. What rules could keep a conversation, a dialogue ascending even if the participants don’t agree?

If we look at the fofblog, people don’t tread on each other’s personal sphere but it is a conversation going nowhere, it is a descending, dying dialogue, not because they don’t agree but because they can’t dialogue. They all agreed to agree. Like in cults.
While here you and I are also in a descending octave because we are going into the personal sphere without each being able to “hold the dream above”, or the principle of respect and love. I’m hurt, you’re hurt and we keep hurting each other.

Beyond us what I find vicious about the conversation is that your position is that you don’t have to supply it with anything else and can stand on the personal attack per se leaving no room for your self or mine. Where is the beauty inside if you’re not willing to let it out? So even when I try to bring other beauties to the conversation and point out that you simply haven’t understood me, you call me names like petty and fail to add anything because you think it’s not worth it.

Like that it becomes a clear descending octave because for a dialogue the supply of life needs to come from both parties and your position is that I have to supply what I have, that you aren’t here to give me anything, inform me of anything and express these things with derogatory remarks such as spoon feeding me, or smooching my ass, etc. Which is what you did all along in the fofblog that led to my being banned no matter how unbelievable that is.

The “supply of life” in a dialogue has various ingredients which I am just beginning to explore and I think again we meet with a threefold nature of the activity. One is one’s self or ego in the conversation, the other is what one is willing to bring to it and the third how one adds and adds and adds without letting it fall because both partners feed each other like birds flying in groups in which the bird ahead “sustains” the bird behind with the beating of his wings. It’s actually the same as in a successful or unsuccessful marriage.

When both of our beings are low, we both pull the conversation down and each other as much and that’s one vicious scenario. The other one is when one of the participants provides life repeatedly and the other one just eats it up, not acknowledging there is anything of value, destroying all she or he can and not recognizing anything positive or adding something positive. Then the egos eat at each other and hurt each other endlessly with two unhappy enemies as a result and an insured divorce.

The only way I think it is possible to avoid that is by understanding what is happening, clearing each other out and our selves within, remembering that we actually care for each other and would like to dialogue and avoiding to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

If we manage to separate our selves from the painfully personal sphere somewhat and keep adding our point of view with “life” then something from the outside might be able to sculpt the inside without it being a direct blow from one to the other. I don’t know that that is possible, maybe Socrates’ dialogues are pointing at that beautifully, but I am certainly no expert at it and would love to try it. Would you?

I am hurt by you. I am angry. I wish you to feel my pain for having been banned unjustly and acknowledge it. I wish you to take responsibility for what you did and act on it and clear me where I am clear in the fofblog and you are not willing to do that so our conversation here is tainted with that antecedent. Is it worth continuing to talk and try to overcome that, which is difficult because I have a strong desire to not let go unless you protest the banning or at least recognize your mistreatment or shall we just leave it so that we don’t continue to hurt each other since what you are doing is justifying your action trying to get me to act abusive so that you can say that I am just a crazy lunatic that deserved it.

I feel I’ve been trying to overcome the difficulty for some time now but when I get a response that thinks saying you don’t understand what I am trying to say is a personal attack and then call me petty, or that I want you to smooosch my ass or don’t do my homework and such language or that you won’t acknowledge the text itself and the life in it because I’ll attack you, I am loosing the interest, for it does hurt every time and that is not what I am here for. It not only doesn’t add anything to the conversation, it kills the effort made. I am a great deal more serious here than you are really willing to grant me and that dignity that you felt in my last post is what I am after. The willingness to sit with each other in the Public Square, sharing our lives while the Sun sets bright is what I would like, not the two alcoholics screaming at each other around the fountain while the others smile. I’ve done that all too much Ton, perhaps it is good for you in this time of your life, you’re very good at it, but I didn’t do it enough in the Fellowship cult, overdid it in the fofblog the first time and was already done with it when I joined the second time so it is not what I am going to indulge in here.

Please allow us to be our selves and grow or let’s move out of each other’s way as you said, wishing each other well. If we learn to dialogue we might actually learn to keep the beauty of a marriage alive each in our own lives.

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69. Elena - April 21, 2010 [Edit]
You’re very welcome here Ton. This a neutral place where we all fit. If you and I don’t understand each other that is alright. You can share other aspects of life, the world, yourself, what ever you wish is good.

I will do that too because there is so much more to life than arguing with each other about nothing.

My love to you,
Elena

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70. Elena - April 21, 2010 [Edit]
you tube, elephant on trampoline


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71. Elena - April 21, 2010 [Edit]
yoyoma, cello suite-final fantasy


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72. Elena - April 21, 2010 [Edit]
And this one to mothers and friends
We wish you were here



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73. Elena - April 21, 2010 [Edit]
We are the world, lionel richie and others


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74. Elena - April 21, 2010 [Edit]
We are

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75. ton - April 21, 2010 [Edit]
e: “The more I look at the trap we’re….”

the trap YOU’re in elena….

ya elena, i read that post already, and i won’t bother to deconstruct it for you because by now i’m sure that process is getting old for both of us… i will say generally, my impression is that like most of your posts addressed to me, it’s filled with a mixture of self-pity and arrogance…. and you repeat the same “themes” over and over again in the expectation that if you repeat things often enough then they must be “true.”

as for the trap YOU’re in elena, it’s good that you at least recognize that you are in a trap elena, and if indeed you do continue to “look” at it “more” then that may help you to see the trap for what it is…. it has nothing to do with ME elena, it’s about YOU, it’s about how you perceive things… it’s a trap of your own making but that’s the part that’s difficult to see. keep this in mind elena, it takes more than merely “looking” at the trap in order to escape… the question is what are you doing about it… maybe nothing, some folks can become fascinated in the trap, mesmerized by it, many become accustomed to being in a trap, it’s familiar and therefore it’s part of their comfort zone…

elena, from the sound of your posts, i think i can safely assume that change does not come easily for you… and from the sound of your posts you’ve completely dismissed everything i’ve had to “say” to you… i think there is a connection… i would suggest (again) that you go back and re-read our entire exchange, read it several times in order to digest it, maybe in time you’ll be able to see things more clearly and recognize persectives other than your “own.”

i offer this as food for you elena, it’s up to you to eat… or not:

http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/HumCosThot/HuCoTh_index.html

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76. Elena - April 21, 2010 [Edit]
Hi Ton,

My deep gratitude for that site, it truly is a gem. Here is this that comes much to the point. Have a great day!

LECTURE I

A man reflecting on his own nature soon becomes conscious that there is within him a second and more powerful self than the one bounded by his thoughts, his feelings, and the fully-conscious impulses of his will. He becomes aware that he is subject to that second self, as to a higher power. It is true that at first he will feel it to be a lower entity as compared with the one limited by his intelligent and fully-conscious soul, with its inclinations towards the Good and True. And at first he will strive to overcome that lower entity.

But closer self-examination may reveal something else about this second self. If we often, in the course of our lives, make a kind of survey of our acts and experiences, we make a singular discovery about ourselves. And the older we are, the more significant do we think that discovery. If we ask ourselves what we did or said at a particular period of our lives, it turns out that we have done very many things which are only really understand in later years. Seven or eight, or perhaps twenty years ago, we did certain things, and we know quite well that only now, long afterwards, is our intellect ripe enough to understand what we did or said at that earlier period. R. Steiner from The Spiritual Guidance of Mankind