The Separation between State and Religion

In time we will realize that Democracy is the entitlement of individuals to every right that was in its times alloted to kings. The right to speak and decide, to be treated with decency, to serve and be served by people in a State of “love” that is, to serve with one’s work for the development of ‘life’. To belong to the Kingdom of Human Beings without racial, national, social or academic separations. To love and be loved. To die at the service of the whole and be honored in one’s death, for one’s life and work was legitimately valued. To be graceful and grateful. To have the pride and the humility of being One with the Universe, One with every realm of Existence, One with every living and deceased soul. To treat with dignity and be treated with dignity for One is dignified together with All others and Life itself. To walk the path of compassion, not in the sorrow of guilt but in the pride of being. To take responsability for one’s mistakes and sufferings and stand up again and again like a hero and a heroine and face the struggle that is put at one’s feet and in one’s hands. Millions of people, millions and millions of people might take many generations to realize the consciousness of our humaneness but there is no other dignified path for the human being.

The “work” as I conceive it is psychological and political. Psychology is the connection between the different dimensions within one’s self and Politics is the actualization of that consciousness in our practical lives. Religion is the ceremony that binds the connectedness between the individual and the Universe. The separation between religion, politics and science, the arts and sports is, in the sphere of the social, the reflection of the schizophrenia within the individual and the masses. The dialogue between individuality and the "human" belongs to consciousness. The tendency to develop cults resides in the shortcomings we’are finding in life as it is structured today. “Life” has become the private property of a few priviledged who cannot profit from it because as soon as it is appropriated it stops to be “life” or “life-giving”.

We are all the victims of our own invention and each one is called upon to find solutions. The only problem is believing our selves incapable of finding them. We are now free to use all Systems of knowledge objectively, sharing them without imposing our will on each other. To become objective about our lives means to understand that the institutions that govern its experience are critically important. That we are one with the governments, one with the religious activities that mark its pace, that the arena’s in which we move our bodies and the laboratories in which we explore our possibilities are ALL part and parcel of our own personal responsibility. That WE ARE ONE WITH EACH OTHER AND EVERYTHING AROUND US and acknowledge for ourselves a bond of love in conscious responsibility. That we human beings know ourselves part of each other and are willing and able to act on our behalf for the benefit of each and every individual. That we no longer allow governments, industries, universities or any other institution to run along unchecked by the objective principles of humaneness. That we do not allow gurus to abuse their power or governors to steal the taxes and use them to their personal advantage in detriment of the whole. That we do not allow abuse from anyone anywhere because life is too beautiful to do so and that we are willing to stop the rampant crime with the necessary compassion Conscious knowledge is every individual's right. Conscious action is every individual's duty.

Blog Archive

Sunday 11 April 2010

Record of page 91 when I was banned again, april 2010


Fellowship Of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion – Part 91 March 31, 2010

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized. 
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Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion.
For recent pages from the blog go here
For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussionblog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.
The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.
To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org
For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.
For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.
This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.
If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.
And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.
At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.
Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).
Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)

Comments»

1. Associated Press - March 31, 2010
Hello FoF Bloggers,
I have some documents that I would like to place on:
fellowshipoffriends.wikispaces.com/Archives
under:
Fellowship of Friends in books and news
or
FoF page at:
archive.org
Can someone tell me how to best do that anonymously?
Thank you.
2. Elena - March 31, 2010
Hi Folks,
I would like to apologize to each and every one of you for the obnoxious behavior I managed to get to in my frustration with this whole issue that led to my banning and ask to join this conversation again.
I am positively convinced that there are still a thousand ways to make this sad experience highly profitable for those who are still inside, those who have left and those who will hopefully never join!
3. No Kid - March 31, 2010
273. Wouldnt You Like To Know:
“…it was called the Franklin Complex.
That’s right. Another rather forgettable name.
“…series of ponds…Christ Waters, and Lake Nancy”
Wow. Seriously? Christ Waters and Lake Nancy? That is just too good. I saw that and thought it was satire at first…
274. Jomo Piñata:
“No Kid, I’d be interested to know whether the following document provides any fodder for your recollections: http://bit.ly/bCy16f”
Yes. That is pretty much the roster from the early days.
4. Jomo Piñata - April 1, 2010
Associated Press/1
Information about uploading material to archive.org appears here:
5. Elena - April 1, 2010
Hi fofblogmoderator,
This blog connected to Anderson Cooper’s exposure of scientology is worth participating to denounce the Fellowship.
6. fofblogmoderator - April 1, 2010
2 & 5 are new
7. Golden Veil - April 1, 2010
*
The most wasted of all days is one without laughter. [e.e. cummings]
What will they think of next?!
*
8. Elena - April 2, 2010
Golden Veil,
I enjoyed your video and so did my dog who was watching with me. I then put the translator on him and he said while holding his front legs on his eyes “What you doing in there, are you in for another round of applause?”
It IS so good to laugh! I’ve missed you all well but the pause was great! Thanks!
Anderson Cooper at CNN (TV) is holding the scientology interview tonight at ten in case you’re interested in watching it.
9. Someone - April 2, 2010
2. Elena
Wholeheartedly welcome back
I am not a very active member in this Blog. Personally I am all for for letting go. When I left, at the beginning, I was obsessed with keeping in touch and collecting information about “What is going on”.
Later on I realized that if I keep on holding the FoF in my mind I will fail to recover, mostly financially. When I left I was literally broke with no money even for descent food. Now I am in a prosperous situation.
Today I know that there must be balance between the “role” of exposing RB evil deeds and the possibility of unwillingly becoming obsessed with the FoF.
I think of the heart and mind of some folks here who left 20-30 years ago and are still full of bitterness. I think it is important to realize that this Blog is not necessarily a replacement for psychological and mental help.
10. Elena - April 2, 2010
Hello Someone,
Have a happy leave. Don’t worry about what others are doing or judging that they are obsessed with something you’re not. The Fellowship Cult is just one small phenomenon in a big world and everything that happens in there is happening in different versions outside and in other cults. It is not the cults that matter but people’s lives. My responsibility as a human being is to take my small experience and understand the big lesson in the hope that others will profit from my experience and not make the same mistakes. Taking care of our selves and our lives does not mean we are obsessed with a subject. One does not need to be identified to carry out one’s work or live one’s life and the most precious aspect of any life is that which one shares with others.
The cult phenomenon is something of our times. It is good to live fully in the time one belongs to and I consider it an honor to have shared that terrible experience with the members of the Fellowship cult and consequently be able to digest it with them. Had I loved it any less, I would not have married the second in command! I wish we could use his brains to untangle the mess he managed to get himself and so many of us in.
I am presently trying to write a book and would like to share some of it here so that it will hopefully get destroyed if it’s not worth it before any paper is wasted on it! In one chapter I argue that the tendency in cults to lead to suicide like those in the People’s Temple in Jonestown where 918 Americans died, Solar Temple -74, Heaven’s Gate – 39, the Movement for the restoration of the Ten Commandments – 778, is due to the fact that members are psychologically deformed so substantially that killing or dying is the culmination of an ongoing process and not just an accident.
I affirm that when the guru finally asks for the member’s lives, (and in all of them I found the same structures were in place as those in the Fellowship cult with a very interesting difference which is that the overt violence of places like Jonestown, is strongly “introverted” in the Fellowship cult, “introverted” and “refined”, using alchemy itself to impose the restrictions) having the members already surrendered their emotional life: family, husband, wife, children, friends, mankind to blind idolatry for the guru; their intellectual expansion: reducing themselves to quotes from the teacher and his choices and their “self”: replacing their capacity to take decisions on their personal as much as social lives, death comes as a liberation from an unbearable situation in which they have already sacrificed most of their being.
This is roughly the outline of that chapter. I would much appreciate it if those who have read extensively on cults and have seen other authors addressing the issue of suicide would let me know in what book I can find a related piece.
I believe those of us who have closely lived such process and freed our selves from it can shed a great deal of light on it in the hope that it will not continue to repeat itself endlessly.
Thank you for sharing. Elena
11. Thot Plickens - April 2, 2010
I’m glad you bring that up, because many people have used the FOF as “a replacement for psychological and mental help.” People feel lost in the world, or out of place, so they turn to a manipulative guru to lead the way. It’s a simple formula for many cults.
One word in your post was interesting… “balance.” Imv, as long as people are balancing their commentary with positive steps in their lives, releasing their thoughts in a blog is a good thing. If people do that, there’s no need to worry about being “obsessed” or “bitter.”
Be sure to take some of your own advice as you deliver it. If you’ve moved on, then move on. If you think bitterness is a bad thing, then let go of your bitterness toward the blog — which expresses itself in your persistent comments that people just need to move on. It seems like you’re having trouble letting go of the idea of letting go. Be the words (which by the way is one of the best ideas conveyed in the FOF, but one of the least applied).
Negative comments about the FOF are not by definition coming from “bitterness” and “obsession.” But even if there is some occasional bitterness, my question is why that’s a bad thing. Some of the best medicine has a bitter taste to it. And the end result is a type of cleansing. Of course, you don’t want to be consumed by it, and that’s where balance comes in.
If the topic of the moment is imbalance and obsession and bitterness, take a closer look at the FOF… scorning the world of sleeping machines who just can’t see the way — who somehow can’t see the belovedness in the beloved teacher. What’s wrong with them? And now, instead of quietly leaving us alone, they mock us with their critical and very public commentary. That is bitterness, too. That is obsession, too. That is imbalance, too. That is the FOF.
We don’t usually see the negativity that radiates from Burton’s ideas, because they’re delivered with a soft voice and a smile. But listen more closely.
12. silentpurr - April 2, 2010
Well stated, meow!
13. Panorea - April 3, 2010
Dear Someone,
I am very grateful to those who shouted at my face with all their anger and bitterness and fears and inability to let go…. They gave me the wake-up call I needed to pack my bags and run with no looking back…
I would not worry about the “others” if I were you… Take care you do not sink into a blissful “relativity” state as we were so well-instructed in the Cult…
I am off to enjoying a lovely Eastern Weekend, with no agendas, extra luggage and “efforts to transform one’s misery.” Misery that is being presented as some kind of necessary evil in the FOF (oh, yes, and not to forget the Pathway to Presence pretense…). Misery that believe me or not… Can be easily dropped very quickly after you drop the illusion of a “conscious teacher”, or even better said the illusion others can be better beings than you…
Life is sweet and Love does not hurt…
Happy Egg Hunting!
14. nige - April 3, 2010
Dearest Elena
So glad to see you back after a while (is it about a year?). I have personally been away myself due to a broken router on my PC which has been fixed. More importantly, I have been away because of having to spend more time on my jewellery teaching business –http://www.apma-uk.co.uk – with more new students and profitable, both moneywise and artistically, commissions. I recognise the need to ‘let go’ and have now not much interest in bringing down REB and Co. (or at least less interest than some time ago when I was going into messianic modes). Real friends and real family for me now – plus an Easter Message to you all from Walt Whitman:-
“Always life, always inception”.
Nigel.
15. Elena - April 3, 2010
Hi Nigel, good to see you are well. I think it’s been about five months!
In another chapter of the book I’m trying to write, I state that the Fourth Way as presented by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky is essentially no different to other cults including the Christian religions.
In all of them there are a few basic premises such as a human and a divine realm, the relationship of the human to the divine and vice-versa, how the human can reach the divine through particular behavior and the relationship from human to human. It is no coincidence that the Fourth Way is presented as esoteric Christianity for in essence it adopts the same basic tenets.
I argue that the differences between the problems we face today are no different to those posed to people in Martin Luther’s time. What has changed is the number of people able to participate in the social processes due to democratic realities. The simple fact that more people are able to participate economically, socially and culturally and that the power relations between them is not as strongly tied to a unique hierarchic structure, gives room for not only greater freedom but also much more abuse. As the power of the king and the pope declines, we see the phenomenon of dictators and gurus trying to replace them each with their own particular agenda on what is right for the people. People remain, what changes is the relations between them.
What we also see is that in all times, the relations between people are tied to their relationship to the “goods” they share. Economic, cultural and social “goods” and how those goods are distributed is what determine the relationships between them as much as how each feels about his or herself.
The social, economic and political milieu in which an individual grows up, determines the way they will develop no differently than nature determines the way an animal behaves. Nature is to an animal what culture is to a man. They belong to each other as the dot to the line or the center to the periphery.
One of the great realities that the cult phenomenon is revealing is that the milieu to which people are submitted has the power to enslave them more deeply or free them more expansively in very short periods of time. We can see that the “milieu” has the capacity to lead people to massive suicide in periods no longer than weeks, months or years. Weeks in the internet mass suicides of Japan and years in the twenty-thirty year process of the People’s Temple (Jonestown). It would be very interesting to look closely at the social structures proper of Japan to understand the ingredients for the suicides. In my superficial knowledge of it, the impression is that it has been a very strict, formal society that has promoted suicide as a viable resolution to failure to act with honor in people of high rank but that has developed in modern times into very young people “joyfully” committing suicide because they deem themselves a failure before they even have or give themselves a serious opportunity to try. Statistics show that there are around 100 suicides per day in Japan. How what was once an “honorable solution” has turned inside out and against its own people, is something to look deeply into. It is as if the young Japanese today, were trying to tell their community that it has failed to honor them but instead of fighting against it, they sacrifice themselves to it and maintain it’s honor.
It is also interesting to look at how members of society are solving similar difficulties in western countries where teenagers are simply taking firearms and shooting at whoever got and gets in their way. They are both equivalent responses to different “milieus” and are both a profound scream for help from the younger generation to the older generation. Hopefully we will not take too much time to hear it.
16. ton - April 3, 2010
9 Someone
“I think of the heart and mind of some folks here who left 20-30 years ago and are still full of bitterness.”
a recurring theme which “someone” continues to repeat here is the idea of “letting go” and moving on. to my way of thinking “letting go” does not imply forgetting, in fact if one were to blithely forget an incident which should otherwise serve as a real and true “life lesson,” this forgetfulness would by necessity lead to repeating the experience, albeit in some other form. to me, “letting go” requires firstly and ultimately, digesting of experience — this “digestion” implies in part, putting an experience into a proper perspective, seeing it in the larger context of one’s overall biography. in order to truly “let go” one thing is certain, it’s necessary to forgive one’s self. forgiveness of self only begins with digestion of the experience, then the “blame game” can take a positive turn and some measure of wisdom is distilled from the experience. connected to all of this is getting deep inside of and understanding one’s feelings, including the “bitterness” which may be the (literal and metaphorical) medicine in the pill of an experience.
when “someone” is “20 – 30 years” removed from the experience maybe s/he will understand how this works (?).
17. nige - April 3, 2010
15 ton
You are one of those people with spiritual common sense. I know, in the past, you have helped me through ‘crazy times’. Strangely, though, this being Easter, I should be in a ’soaring high’ – but no – just a gentle positivity with plenty of rest before the crative season of Spring. When we talk of balance, we must know ourselves in all our aspects and walk boldly towards the future but, as you mention, learning from the past. Life and joy to all of us…..Nigel.
18. nige - April 4, 2010
Hi Elena, again…..
I had a chance to view the few pages that are on your Public Square site. I feel you are as determined as ever to speak out against the FOF and cults in general. That being so , I think I must be supportive of all efforts here to expose the FOF and REB to close scrutiny, since I was one of those who survived the psychological and financial pressures of the cult (the scars of hell or “mestatized at the fingertips” as one student poetically wrote about my suicidal injuries remind me that there was a reason I survived).
I cannot be sure whether REB is inwardly quaking in his boots and putting on a brave face or whether he is just so pathologically far gone that nothing bothers him. Either way, we must keep probing away at his bubble…..Nigel.
19. Elena - April 5, 2010
Hi Nigel and All,
I am glad to hear you still have some enthusiasm. I am definitely not more determined to speak out against the Fellowship of Friends Cult than I am about speaking against myself or anyone else in this wide world. The problems at hand will not be solved by pointing at anyone but by exploring what in everyone tends to lead to crime and by crime I understand people who systematically act against their own self or that of others. Cults are just one amongst many of such groups. Perhaps the most tragic aspect about them is the willingness with which people walk to their own destruction convinced that they are going to heaven. When I look at similar phenomenon happening the world over in places as disparate as Sweden, Japan and Colombia, the urgency to understand what is actually happening simply triples itself.
I’ve been indulging in intense research on suicide and sexuality, religion and power but it feels like I have barely scratched the road that is to be tred. It is truly very exiting! One of the authors I’ve been digging deeply on is Michel Foucault and great as he is looking at each particular phenomenon and revealing worlds within worlds as he goes by, I’ve had the feeling that he is also simply scratching on the problem and that while he is a master at understanding some aspects of the problems, he doesn’t grasp the whole picture. Who could? Maybe no one is meant to grasp the whole picture and we’re all justly destined to reflect the piece that didn’t get lost in our own mirror. He and other equally great authors such as Jurgen Habermas seem to be looking at sides of the elephant and not the whole elephant as I believe a System tries to encompass and yet if we look at, for example the Fourth Way System as presented by Gurdjieff, it is so weak in the area of society that it lent itself to Robert’s separation from “life” and make of that weakness a tool for the development of the cult. I believe Rodney Collin tried to balance that but drastically bounced off religion when he thought that people in essence could take on the responsibility of consciously caring for others. They do it naturally as far as they can in their own sphere.
The more I look, the more it seems to me that Robert and the gurus of cults are as much the victims as the members. The fact that they commit suicide together at the end of the play in the classic “cult”, does not reveal a man who fooled the rest and got away with it but a man that is as deeply enmeshed in the problem as everyone else in the play. Robert to me is not self-destructing any less than the rest of the members. He is a man incapable of love and that already reveals someone who is pretty destroyed. Like Jim Jones, who boasted that he could have sex 15 times a day, the chaos and manipulation of his sexuality simply reveals the lack of focus of his own emotional sphere. It is very superficial to think that one man alone can make a thousand people poison themselves to death and the wonder of realizing that is the beginning of understanding that not only do people influence each other but that life itself is an objective reality that has the capacity to lead people to their destruction or their realization; that the “WAY WE LIVE” with each other, the way we interact and the things we do, has a dialectic power to recreate the “social” through culture and the individual through his personal participation in that culture: his “Work”.
The question then is: Why does life in cults lead to destruction? One possible answer is that people do not work from their self, that is, their own I is not active in the work they perform. Having given up their will to the guru they become automatons without soul and shun “culture” or creativity, which needs the inspiration that comes from the sphere of the I. They continue to “function” but without “life”. In that sacrifice of their “self” and surrender to the guru’s will, they, consequent to the premise, self-destroy. The actual ritual of “dying” is the culminating realization of what they had lived for: self-sacrifice. The tragic lesson that comes from such cults is not that the human being is a destructive entity willing to self destroy but that the human being is an entity willing to sacrifice itself for its ideals and that in the childlike immaturity of our being today, we give ourselves up naively to people as immature as our selves and who self-destroy together with us. That we all have to take responsibility for the problems because not one of us is able or capable to do so no matter how much power we give him or how willingly he takes the job.
The next question could be: Why are we living through a period of equally decadent culture in the world today? Another possible aspect of the answer is that like in cults, the majority of people work not because they are creatively inspired to do so but because they are tied to the economic profit and not the human gain, whether they are in the lower or upper classes. The production of millions of things that are not only not necessary but harmful to the world at large, using and abusing not only the material but human resources, creates, like in cults, a mechanism that tends to self-destruction. People in cults are trying to compensate what people in life are unable to offer: their capacity to sacrifice their own greed for the well being of the whole.
The election of Mr. Obama in the United States as much as the new direction in politics as presented by Sarkozy in his visit to the US, seems to carry an awareness of the problem that such “market” driven world was leading to, so I am much more optimistic about the future than I was when I was “pulled out” of the Fellowship cult by this blog. That alone makes it a worth while reason to keep supporting this blog in the hope that others inside will hold on to it to take a step outside. We are here to help you inside be less afraid of such a step. It is so beautiful to feel the expansion of one’s own self over the whole of the wide world without the constraints of a destructive little cult that I wholeheartedly invite each member inside to try it out for yourselves. This “life” is your life! You do not need to sacrifice your selves to show the world how willing you are to help it. Enough people have already done that in other cults. You will help yourselves and others more, not by self-destroying but by self-constructing through patient and gradual participation in the world at large. We are One! And it is a “magnificent” world!
20. nige - April 5, 2010
Elena writes
“by crime I understand people who systematically act against their own self or that of others”
“Perhaps the most tragic aspect about them is the willingness with which people walk to their own destruction convinced that they are going to heaven”
“he (Rodney Collin) thought that people in essence could take on the responsibility of consciously caring for others. They do it naturally as far as they can in their own sphere”
“life itself is an objective reality that has the capacity to lead people to their destruction or their realization”
“people do not work from their self, that is, their own I is not active in the work they perform. Having given up their will to the guru they become automatons without soul and shun “culture” or creativity, which needs the inspiration that comes from the sphere of the I”
“the majority of people work not because they are creatively inspired to do so but because they are tied to the economic profit and not the human gain”
“We are here to help you inside be less afraid of such a step. It is so beautiful to feel the expansion of one’s own self over the whole of the wide world without the constraints of a destructive little cult that I wholeheartedly invite each member inside to try it out for yourselves”
Elena…..
I remember one of the Renaissance Vine editions encouraging students to train in computer engineering and allied jobs. So much for the growth of Essence!?!?! I managed to gain my Honours degree in Craft Design (having joined the FOF half-way through my course) and saved up money as a handyman in the London Centre to go to California to train as a precious-metal craftsman, which caused a psychological (due to the stress of working within the FOF) and financial (due to teaching – ha-ha! – payments) downward spiral until that fateful day of 11 June 1989. Despite many attempts to ’spiritually’ and ‘essentially’ get back on my feet, it was not until 2003 that the ‘picture changed’ – learning to teach my precious craft discipline. I now have a beautiful little school with beautiful, striving students. THE PAYMENT WAS WORTH IT when I look back now. And I see so many ex-students have been able to ‘get back on their feet’ essentially. I hope you, Elena, and other students both in and out of the FOF will gain from this post…..
THIS IS THE WAY IN WHICH I WISH TO CARE FOR YOU ALL…..Nigel.
21. nige - April 5, 2010
You all might like this little quote that my friend, George, in Pacifica, sent me…..Nigel
“As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.” – Carl Jung
22. ton - April 5, 2010
why / how a person is drawn into a cult and then controlled by cult indoctrination ? at a stage in their development, an individual searches for meaning and direction in life. when the person is young and relatively inexperienced (as was true in my case), they lack the life-experience and therefore the genuine ability to reflect and look “within” in a relevant / meaningful way, and so, a young person who seeks to understand the “deeper” questions, might “naturally” (easily) latch onto a “system” which seems to contain at least the possibility for answers to the “deep” questions — or maybe it’s the other way ’round — a “system” latches onto the seeker. the pervasive conditioning of people in today’s materialistic culture is such that it creates in the individual a tendency to look outside of themselves for gratification and fulfillment, so it’s not surprising when the inexperienced seek outside of themselves for the satisfying of answers regarding “matters of the spirit.”
part of the packaging is the representative (or representatives) of “the system,” an authority figure (or figures) who are (of course) also “outside” of the seeker. once the seeker believes he’s found “IT,” then all that is required is a few suggestions by the representative(s) of outside authority, in order to sow the seeds of control which are internalized and quickly grow into auto-suggestion, auto-regulation and the invisible chains and limitations imposed by self-supervision.
the antecedents involve cultural conditioning and a form of mind-control initiated by cult indoctrination, but mind-control is internally perpetuated by the cult member herself…. this represents a type of “invisible omniscience” extended by the “guru” over the flock. the good news is, since mind-control is for the most part self-inflicted, breaking the chains is very much within the power of the individual so afflicted…
23. brucelevy - April 5, 2010
“Most god men are self-proclaimed, and they are being increasingly outed as hypocrites and fakes,” said Ravi Ghatge, a retired banker in Bangalore. “Then everybody finds out that there is not an iota of spirituality in any of them,” he added.”
24. Elena - April 6, 2010
A serious look at scientology. It’s amazing that the Fellowship cult didn’t need a third of the paraphernalia to drive people as crazy as these. Just alchemy… we fell with just the good looks!
25. wildz - April 6, 2010
There has been much in the news about school children and bullying lately. One high profile case where the young teen girl committed suicide. Just wanted to share an experience I had with my son attending the Lewis Carroll School. He was in the third grade and was being bullied by an older boy. This boy was the son of one of Robert’s favorites at the time. My son came home saying he wanted to kill himself because of the abuse (some of it physical). I addressed the issue with his teacher J_n_t. Nothing was done. I took him out of Lewis Carroll and enrolled him in public school. Not long after I was called with a message from Robert, “You are traitor to c influence.”
I have NO REGRETS
26. Elena - April 6, 2010
and a very interesting blog follows the interviews.
27. brucelevy - April 6, 2010
25. wildz
An “I” I find useful to work with is “Fuck Robert”.
28. wildz - April 6, 2010
yes, Bruce, thank you. I am a Mama Bear!!!! and F___ R_____
29. Elena - April 6, 2010
30. Agent 45 - April 6, 2010
Dear wildz:
Please forward case file for J_n_t.
I’ll look into it.
Sincerely,
Richard Boone
PS. Ames, you may be called in on this one.
31. ton - April 6, 2010
19 “We are One!”
“The oneness doctrine appeals to modern westerners because it seems less authoritarian and easier to reconcile with science than western theologies, but it is riddled with contradictions. It takes an individual, after all, to experience oneness; moreover, the concept of oneness has within it a hidden duality that leads to a hierarchical division of reality. Oneness ideologies denigrate individuality as illusory and self-interest as sinful, the source of all suffering and evil.
Buddhism and Hinduism in particular postulate the existence of certain rare beings who have transcended their individuality and thus experience oneness in a deep and abiding fashion. These are the enlightened ones, gurus, masters, sages, avatars. The very nature of any structure that makes one person superior to others breeds authoritarianism, indeed, gurus are the ultimate authority figures. The guru insists that the path to enlightenment comes through surrender to him. The guru claims that those who devote themselves to him will be rewarded with bliss, self-knowledge, immortality, states that are conveniently as difficult to reach as they are compelling. The guru projects an air of absolute certainty not only about his enlightenment but about almost all matters. When criticized, the guru accuses the critic of being mired in illusion and egotism, which the guru, of course, has transcended.
Both as individuals and as a species, we face real-world problems, some of which threaten our very existence. Spirituality can help motivate us to address these problems by boosting our empathy for our fellow humans and for all of life. But spirituality should incorporate reason as well as emotion and intuition, and it should be embedded in daily life, not separate from it.”
——————————————————–
23
“Sceptic challenges guru to kill him live on TV….
Since richer, urban Indians have little time for long pilgrimages or pujas (prayer ceremonies), they are often attracted by holy men who offer instant gratification — for a fee.”
32. Elena - April 6, 2010
Hello Ton,
What an elegant way of questioning a statement.
The idea of We are One or All is One I believe, has been experienced by Westerners of our times when they are tripping on drugs, when an afternoon is too awesome to avoid it or when making love, the whole cosmos participates as much as when they sit peacefully with each other and listen to music, talk things over or cuddle around their children. Such experiences include the kind of Oneness that I am talking about. In addition I believe children are naturally closer to the experience of Oneness; that we all know what it tastes like when we remember ourselves as children for children are not born with the deformed perception of the world that comes with separatist concepts and behavior present in classicism, academicism, “groupalism”, racism and nationalism. Humanism as a doctrine would tend to become as “separationist” as any of those isms and maybe that is its destiny, but Humanism as an inner reality of the individual as much as a social practice amongst communities would tend to make Oneness a reality when, beyond our religious beliefs and nationalities, we begin to share in the life of this Earth as Human Beings.
I believe people already have experiences of Oneness in our lives without having ever tried to have it and that the experience of that Oneness is powerfully expressed in the integrity of people still connected to nature and their nature. The pathologic disconnectedness to our selves and others seems to have come with the industrial revolution and particularly the human misery that came with such process in which the whole purpose of “work” and “life” became “economic survival”. Alcoholism in Russia, drugs in the States and Europe and suicide in Japan could be better understood if we realize the extent to which people’s lives no longer matter in those societies, what matters, like in the Fellowship cult, is how much is you are worth, how much do you produce? And then by standardizing that amount that people produce with an average wage, that production becomes a massive phenomenon in which individuals have no meaning and their place in society is just a number: an “employee”. That is deadly for the soul and culture of the human being as an individual as much as a community. People are so uninspired in these societies that we get phenomenon like the 23 suicides of the telecom company in France in the past two years, many actually leaving letters stating that they cannot bear the work environment. The corporate world has become a cult of its own.
So as not to extend too much here, let me conclude saying that the experience of Oneness as I am understanding it today, is “life-giving” and we actualize it by the “spirit” within our “acts”. Everything a person does separates or unites him with the rest of the world. Pathological separation leads to destruction in a process of crime. Most people live consciously or unconsciously uniting and separating with the rest of the world. Cults are unconsciously separating from the rest of the world until they suffocate in their pathologic individualism. No matter how “humanistic” their ideals, their practices are anti-humanistic and that makes them implode rather than evolve! Healthy communities allow for healthy union between their individuals and healthy individuals promote healthy communities. These promote culture: a life giving force from the community to the individuals and from the individuals to the community in a dialectic embrace. “The” Culture in which the individual grows up and participates inspires his work and his work inspires his culture or hers! Where there is no culture there is no inspiration, where there is no inspiration, there is no spirit, where there is no spirit, people enter a process of crime. Inspiration cannot live in dogmatism, the greatest challenge Humanists would face, is not to allow Humanism to become a doctrine.
33. Thot Plickens - April 6, 2010
31. “Both as individuals and as a species, we face real-world problems, some of which threaten our very existence. Spirituality can help motivate us to address these problems by boosting our empathy for our fellow humans and for all of life. But spirituality should incorporate reason as well as emotion and intuition, and it should be embedded in daily life, not separate from it.”
ton, thank you for sharing such a beautiful quotation, the above being just one part. (who’s it from?)
Yes, I think when someone says “we are one”, maybe they really meant to say, “We are connected.”
Or maybe, they meant to say:
“Life has more meaning and I feel healthier, stronger, happier, more productive, and more natural when I feel a sense of connectedness to others, to nature, and to the universe as a whole. When my sense of self is dependent upon feeling separate and superior to others, to nature, and to the universe, inevitably things goes awry.”
The desire for separateness and superiority leads to all sorts of inhumanity, crime, war, religious fundamentalism, as well as the gurus described in your quote above, and the cult followers who follow them.
The “air of absolute certainty” that *our* guru conveyed was telling. Nothing escaped that. He had an “air of absolute certainty” about small things and large things. He knew that everyone was doomed who did not support his enterprise. And he also had an “air of absolute certainty” that everyone who *did* support his enterprise were fortunate and blessed. He knew with an “air of absolute certainty” what happened to each one of us when we died. The only criteria for his certainty was whether someone joined the Fellowship of Friends, left the Fellowship of Friends, or never joined the Fellowship of Friends — which, when you think about it, is an insane view of the world. But depending on which of the above categories, a person’s fate was known with an “air of absolute certainty.”
Feelings of connectedness often radiate from a sense of mystery about the world, about ourselves, about others, about nature, about the universe, and about the existence of all of us, as well as the trees, the animals, the rocks, the ocean, and the stars. Believing that we know with certainty “what this is” takes away that sense of mystery. Regaining that is a powerful healing force.
~~~~~~~
From Song of the Universal
…All, all for immortality,
Love like the light silently wrapping all,
Nature’s amelioration blessing all,
The blossoms, fruits of ages, orchards divine and certain,
Forms, objects, growths, humanities, to spiritual images ripening.
Give me O God to sing that thought,
Give me, give him or her I love this quenchless faith,
In Thy ensemble, whatever else withheld withhold not from us,
Belief in plan of Thee enclosed in Time and Space,
Health, peace, salvation universal.
Is it a dream?
Nay but the lack of it the dream,
And failing it life’s lore and wealth a dream,
And all the world a dream.
~Walt Whitman
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bernard Berenson who wrote:
“The older I get, the more the mystery thickens.”
34. Thot Plickens - April 6, 2010
Elena,
Yes, your use of the word separation makes sense to me. A lot of pathos comes from a fear of feeling *too* connected — to others, to nature, to new ways of thinking, and to new knowledge — and to just fear in general. It’s resistance. So, people often combat the fear by separating themselves (me too). Speaking for myself, I think leaving the cult was anything but a separation — it was actually a profound act of connecting.
35. silentpurr - April 6, 2010
It is clear that both the Fellowship and Scientology share a special feature,” THE MERCHANDISING OF GOD, Rooted in a influence ,’the church of selling god’ is a tricky business at it’s best.
“What IS important is that the basic motive is to take the victim to the cleaners for every dollar he has or can beg, steal, or borrow. And it’s incredible how much money the hypnotized disciples of a clever and ruthless operator will plead and of him to accept from them”. Volney Mathison – original inventor of the E meter
Both Fellowship and Scientology compete with children/family for the time and resources of the parents.And children, who are of no value to Business/Church, tend to be marginalized and allowed to suffer. Or made to suffer by work and emotional/financial neglect.
Both Robert and L Ron suffered from a megalomaniac desire to interfere with the parent/child relationship.
My daughter remembers when she was asked to refer to us as ‘mother and father’. She remembers feeling confused and irritated by Robert and his frivolous, manipulative requests.
36. Thot Plickens - April 6, 2010
silentpurr, thanks for another loud roar.
I’m glad people are shedding some light on the effects of this cult on children. I hope more people check in and tell their stories – of all ages.
If you’re out there reading some of this and wondering if anyone cares… yes, they care. Please write your thoughts here, no matter how young, or how old.
—–
25. wildz
Unbelievable.
Or… actually, it’s all too believable.
37. Elena - April 6, 2010
38. ton - April 6, 2010
32 Elena
“….the greatest challenge Humanists would face, is not to allow Humanism to become a doctrine.”
if it has “ism” or “ist” as a suffix,
it ALREADY IS “a doctrine.”
i’m reminded of this:
“In a way ideologies are drug fixes, because they fix some certain kind of mental disequilibrium. You just give yourself a shot of Marxism or Hegelian idealism and say, ‘Oh, that makes the pain go away!’ ” terrence mckenna
33 Thot — John Horgan (Rational Mysticism)
39. Elena - April 6, 2010
Hi Ton,
Would you say that reductionism is quite an obstacle too?
40. Elena - April 6, 2010
For you with love!
41. Elena - April 6, 2010
Actually Ton, the observation is very valuable, the problem is hardly ever in the doctrine but in the way it is lived out. We are after all, still trying to be human!
“There is a certain enthusiasm in liberty that makes human nature rise above itself in acts of bravery and heroism” Alexander Hamilton
42. nige - April 6, 2010
Hey Elena
Why are some of your posts coming up as ‘Adober Readable Only’?…..Nigel
43. Thot Plickens - April 6, 2010
True, humanism is a doctrine. Not to get too involved with translating here, but I think what Elena is suggesting is that one (a.k.a., Juan) can transform humanism into something that’s more than a doctrine.
[I'm not sure that's exactly what she's saying, though.]
But by becoming an actual humanist — not someone who studies it in books or professes to be one — you transcend the doctrine or the idealogy. You become the words.
Doctrines and ideologies are maybe a formalized or structured set of ideas — a set of organized thoughts. That’s good, but if they don’t go beyond that, and if we don’t think about them critically occasionally, maybe the drug analogy is perfect… We not only use them as a drug fix (as TMcK said), but we become addicted to them. And worse yet, the doctrine morphs into something the opposite of what we believed it was right before our eyes — and unfortunately often without us noticing it.
44. ton - April 6, 2010
“…the problem is hardly ever in the doctrine but in the way it is lived out. We are after all, still trying to be human!”
i strongly disagree that “the problem is hardly ever in the doctrine.” where you get all tangled up is in the “trying” – do you imagine that you’ll get it all figured out at some point down the road?
to simply be a human being… imagine that.
45. Elena - April 7, 2010
Thanks Thot for reading between the lines… is that how you say it? Connectedness is a question of grammar!
Oh Ton, isn’t it wonderful that we can disagree and still swim in this pool?
If you haven’t seen this film, please give yourself the pleasure
but this one is shorter if you prefer!
if only we’d been this clever!
46. wildz - April 7, 2010
30 — Agent 45/ Richard Boone
You can contact me at mom.victoria@gmail.com
Thanks for your interest!
47. Elena - April 7, 2010
If someone is writing a summary on JntC I would like to speak on her behalf. Without her help, they would have probably taken Dorothy Beaulieu to the old people’s home which is what Robert asked for and E.B and the other ladies in charge were eager to carry out. I told E.B. that if she did that I would leave the Fellowship the next day and Jnt called me later that evening and told me it wouldn’t happen. Somehow they actually overstepped Robert and let it fall through. Somewhere in this blog is that story.
I hope no one ever forgets that these people are all doing what they are doing because they are in a cult convinced that they are sacrificing their lives under the guidance of a divine being no matter how sick it is when looked at from the outside. Deprogramming these people should be “a labour of love”! even if that included the courts.
48. wildz - April 7, 2010
I commend what j_n_t did for Dorothy. She was also wonderful with some of the children under her care. However, her care did not go beyond what was comfortable for her. She was not willing to support my child over the lover of Robert.
49. Elena - April 7, 2010
That was true of my daughter too Wildz. She trained Girard’s son to give a talk when they were eight years old and she trained my daughter to talk after his son. She trained Girard’s son beautifully and mine poorly and then exposed them. I felt anger and shame but never said anything to anyone about it. But if I started telling such a stories about the Fellowship they wouldn’t stop beginning with the fact that no one who ever had a position in which they could have helped me, was willing to give me a paid job. I always worked for them as a volunteer! Even my husband wouldn’t pay for my medicines when I got sick supporting him on one of his trips!
I realize it is very important to shed light on all these little and big pains that we have but are these stories going to help any one of them still inside step outside? And isn’t that what really matters? Perhaps they won’t help in the short term but life is long enough to remind us of our actions. Not one of these pains is powerful enough to wish any of these people any harm. Those in the inner circle are in fact the most harmed. Those who actually took Robert on high and committed serious acts against themselves and their children, abandoning them, are the worst victims. As I said to one of them once: yes, you did that, take it and suffer it and then be there for it. All we can do is face our selves. Compassion is born in that suffering.
Parallel to denouncing these acts it would be wonderful if we could create a site of support where whoever can offer anything, offers it. “Institutionalizing” this help even with just a page, will send a very clear message of non-judgement to those inside and clear us about what our intentions here actually are.
I would still like to offer a place of rest for anyone inside if they wish to take it. Resting, just resting and having time for one’s self in the cottage in the Caribbean has been wonderfully healing for me. It is an ongoing offer. Take a few months off for your self and think it over without even committing to leaving the Fellowship, that would not be a condition. Just give yourself the opportunity to breathe outside for some time.
50. nige - April 7, 2010
Elena wrote…..
“All we can do is face our selves. Compassion is born in that suffering.”
…..I would add – “However long it takes”…..Nigel
51. wildz - April 7, 2010
I didn’t consider it little. My son came home telling me he wanted to KILL himself. I am, and remain, a MAMA BEAR!
52. nige - April 7, 2010
This may sound funny, but it was part of my “disentanglement process”, hving come out of the FOF. In 1991/2 I was involved with a Secondary Education Training Program. I thought I was going to learn to be a Craft, Design and Technology Teacher and take the qualification back to the Fellowship at Renaissance (never happened, obviously, and I was actually leading up to my first Mental Health Sectioning). The question I would like to lay open at this juncture is – what was the purpose of the Lewis Carroll School? Was it part of the ‘cultural ark’ and allowing the children a broad and liberal education for ‘fitting in’ or are those children, now young adults, involved with ‘alphanumerical professions’ or otherwise. What went right and what went wrong? Is there still some form of education in the Fellowship for youngsters? I hope the answers to these questions may prove enlightening…..Nigel.
53. nige - April 7, 2010
I’ve got nothing on my mind: nothing to remember,
Nothing to forget. and I’ve got nothing to regret,
But I’m all tied up on the inside,
No one knows quite what I’ve got;
And I know that on the outside
What I used to be, I’m not anymore.
You know I’ve heard about people like me,
But I never made the connection.
They walk one road to set them free
And find they’ve gone the wrong direction.
But there’s no need for turning back
`cause all roads lead to where I stand.
And I believe I’ll walk them all
No matter what I may have planned.
Can you remember who I was? can you still feel it?
Can you find my pain? can you heal it?
Then lay your hands upon me now
And cast this darkness from my soul.
You alone can light my way.
You alone can make me whole once again.
We’ve walked both sides of every street
Through all kinds of windy weather.
But that was never our defeat
As long as we could walk together.
So there’s no need for turning back
`cause all roads lead to where we stand.
And I believe we’ll walk them all
No matter what we may have planned.
“Crossroads” – Don McLean
54. fofblogmoderator - April 7, 2010
45 is new
55. Elena - April 7, 2010
Wildz,
Thank you for repeating that “little” detail that easily escapes readers who are, even like myself, “just” reading a blog and often forget to hear the tragedy. Please also note that I said that if anyone is doing a summary on JntC I “simply” wanted to speak on her behalf. With that I did not mean to stop you or anyone else from looking at our suffering, what I meant is that all the sides need to be seen so that we are swift in our judgement and can still help those inside leave and not continue to hide in there because they think we’ll burn them at the stake if they come out and that their sacrifice will solve anything in this world. They already have too strong a tendency to go ahead with it.
The explosion of this blog three years ago should have been enough for all of them to leave but it is clear that they are too addicted to stop taking the drug because their concerned “family” asks them to.
56. ton - April 7, 2010
45 elena
i know that “the moving finger writes… and moves on” — but before it’s buried, let’s review this short thread in the context of something called the “thought terminating cliche’ ” — the effect of which is to discontinue reflective conversation, replacing it with “emotionally appealing phrases.”
it started with “We are one!” — which lead me to an “elegant” (as you put it ) questioning of doctrinaire sloganeering. what followed was (imo) a brief but constructive conversation which only scratched the surface in getting beneath what is otherwise a thought terminating, emotionally appealing cliche. (regarding the individual, the processes of individuation and individualism v collectivism…. cultural programming, dominant paradigms, the ‘christian’ mythos, social conditioning, self-sacrifice, cults… the conversation could go much deeper).
and with my “elegant” questioning of doctrine, you post:
“Actually Ton, the observation is very valuable, the problem is hardly ever in the doctrine but in the way it is lived out. We are after all, still trying to be human!”
another emotionally appealing, thought terminating cliche’ — followed by another:
“Oh Ton, isn’t it wonderful that we can disagree and still swim in this pool?”
dismissal is complete when the subject changes – as it always does… “and having writ, moves on.”
“For those who stubbornly seek freedom, there can be no more urgent task than to come to understand the mechanisms and practices of indoctrination. These are easy to perceive in the totalitarian societies, much less so in the system of ‘brainwashing under freedom’ to which we are subjected and which all too often we serve as willing or unwitting instruments.”
noam chomsky
57. Thot Plickens - April 7, 2010
ton, I sense you’re concerned that when someone finds one doctrine or ideology that proves to be destructive in some way, and then leaps to yet another doctrine without thinking critically about it, they’re potentially replacing one harmful thing with another?
The root of the word indoctrination does happen to be doctrine.
Sometimes I think a potential antidote to that tendency to be consumed by any one ideology or doctrine — to getting sucked in (sorry for the expression) to any type of group thinking — is to be open to manydoctrines, and to connect to many different groups. (without necessary “joining” them by the way).
But I guess it feels cozy and safe to have one doctrine, one ideology, one group, one leader, one nation, one religion, and to attach ourselves to that. Feels safer, but it’s often not so smart or wise, or in the end even safe at all. Even “non-dualism” becomes “dualistic” if you start approaching it in a certain way. The key is to reflect upon the idea, meditate on it, and take from it what is healthy and wise. Seems best whenever possible to avoid the labels — e.g., I’m a non-dualist, I’m a “student of the Fourth Way”, I’m a Democrat, I’m an American. We already start closing ourselves off from the rest of the world, and start down that path of becoming prone to indoctrination.
Or if I do call myself an American or attach any other label, doctrine, or ideology to myself — at least be able to say that I am also a resident of the world at large.
—
“And if we cannot end now our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity. For in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children’s futures. And we are all mortal.”
JFK, June 1963
58. Elena L - April 7, 2010
Hello Nigel, You are the last person I spoke to before leaving the Fellowship. You phoned me at the Chautauqua house and congratulated us on the birth of our new baby boy. He is now 26.
I can remember empathizing with your having to call and congratulate new parents and then, with discomfort, ask for a donation to fund the creation of a Silver Fellowship Baptismal Bowl.
At that moment, I appreciated the call, but in denying the request, I felt newly freed!
Did it get made? How was it used?
I too am interested in the subject of the Fellowship’s methods of ‘teaching’ children.
59. Elena - April 7, 2010
Dear Ton who have consistently checked on me and kept biting at my heels in the hope that I will move a different way, I sincerely thank you for your insight on my recent participation.
I am afraid that like you, I also feel that you pick on a little something of everything I am saying and neglect to address the whole idea, which is all right. If that is all you can do here that is what I am willing to take from you. It is clear that I am little more than a sloganeer for you and if that is what I am, please keep repeating it that I might one day see it and that whoever is reading me is three times careful with what they are hearing.
I write what I believe and it is not that I am following a humanist doctrine that I read somewhere as Thot Plickens suggests but that I have come to understand for myself that everything that made and makes me inhuman towards others is based on some kind of imaginary separateness that I justify because they are different to me economically, socially, academically, nationally or racially. When work on my self began I repeatedly observed those things in me and the more I stopped expressing negativity towards others for these totally absurd reasons, the more I understood that behaving “consciously” for me meant behaving humanly. I am still far from being all the human I wish to become so I thank you for pushing me on. I am glad for you if you feel you have already reached such a condition.
It is also very clear to me that most people don’t understand each other because as soon as they meet they catalogue the other person so thoroughly that they either fall into deep identification wishing to attract that person or totally ignoring them. This too I’ve observed in myself.
I sincerely believe that WE, every human being alive today, can behave humanly at least towards a few people and that wars as they are being waged are not only not necessary but criminal. Since this is my belief the least I can do is to not carry out a war with you and the many here as I did before I was banned. We are not here to agree but to talk and listen and help each other and those inside who, some agree, would benefit from not continuing to sacrifice themselves in the Fellowship cult. It is the duty of a nation and every individual inside of it to stop its people from destroying themselves or others, some still try to help individuals who are about to commit suicide, why aren’t we helping those in cults when we know they are on that train? How many more people in cults have to die before laws are passed to control them? Laws that forbid every institution and cult and anyone with no matter what authority to act against people’s human rights? I am afraid we are far from human today and need laws that will protect us from our very powerful inhuman tendencies such as Fascism just half a century ago and the equally fascist activity of Israelis towards Palestinians today. It is a blessing that so many Jews are already acting against the State of Israel.
I am also not here to be attacked personally or attack you personally but to dialogue about our understandings. Before I was banned I was still so emotionally shocked by the cult experience that people who did not agree and support me in everything I said were perceived as people who did not love me and my self steam was so low that I turned very aggressive towards them. I am very sorry that I needed so much protection after the cult experience and did not look for it somewhere else. I am a little less vulnerable today and your agreeing or disagreeing with me is an opportunity for me to reflect on my understanding and continue to hold you because you are simply another human being with as much confusion and pain as I often experience. Where you not, you would have no difficulty being kind and generous. I do not ask you to love me but there is a huge difference between a conversation in which there is love and one in which there isn’t any. There is no love in your tone, no kindness and when there is no kindness, it is very easy to dismiss what is being said because the other person has in fact dismissed one and just picked up the piece of what one said and used it for his own interests. I sincerely do not know what your interest is but I get a feeling that you are not interested in me which is all right. We are not here to focus on my self but on life. We are fortunate to have the right to freedom of speech and do not need to share deep love to be able to practice it. That is what laws are for.
I can understand that I have hurt many of you in my previous participation on this blog. I have already asked you to forgive me but I cannot force you to forgive. We each come to that in our own time.
I also sincerely thank you for questioning my thinking. Let it get buried deep in the ground if there’s nothing worth sprouting in it. It seems to be helping me and I have not lived in vain, so hopefully it can be useful to others. I have actually nowhere found a simple understanding of what being human means for the individual and society “together”. History seems to be crowded with those who dealt with the inner side or the outer side without getting to the fact that they are too sides of the same coin: the human being. Everywhere people seem to agree that it is enough to be human with those one likes and agrees with, but not with those who do not belong to one’s class, race or nation. Humanism as I am understanding it means Humanism: we are all equals as human beings. We all have the same rights and freedoms:
Civil rights include:
Ensuring peoples’ physical integrity and safety.
Protection from discrimination on grounds such as gender, religion, race, sexual orientation, national origin, age, immigrant status, etc.
Equal access to health care, education, culture, etc.
Political rights include:
Natural justice (procedural fairness) in law (such as the rights of the accused, including the right to a fair trial; due process; the right to seek redress or a legal remedy)
Individual political freedom, including rights of individuals (freedom of thought and conscience, freedom of speech and expression, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of movement) and the right to participate in civil society and politics (freedom of association, right to assemble, right to petition, right to vote)
Civil and political rights comprise the first portion of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (with economic, social and cultural rights comprising the second portion). The theory of three generations of human rights considers this group of rights to be “first-generation rights”, and the theory of negative and positive rights considers them to be generally negative rights.
We are FAR in the world today from practicing these freedoms and rights and each and every one of these rights is horrifically abused in cults, which is the particular area that we are discussing in this blog.
My aim is to explore humanism as I understand it so deeply that there will be no doubt as to why we human beings cannot continue to allow these very destructive cults to proliferate in our societies. My aim I believe is to a certain extent your aim. May we at least share that portion of the effort even if we only get a third of the way. Others will surely pick up where we left off.
60. nige - April 7, 2010
58 Elena Larsson
I started composing a little statement about the Ceremonial Set, as the first major silversmitihing commission I had and how I died to the trade with my mental disorder and became reborn in the teaching of it to others. The ‘thread got lost’ and I have had to say it concisely, but I remember this song being ‘bandied’ as an example of the willfullness feature. How far from the truth can you get…..Nigel.
And now, the end is here
And so I face the final curtain
My friend, I’ll say it clear
I’ll state my case, of which I’m certain
I’ve lived a life that’s full
I traveled each and ev’ry highway
And more, much more than this, I did it my way
Regrets, I’ve had a few
But then again, too few to mention
I did what I had to do and saw it through without exemption
I planned each charted course, each careful step along the byway
And more, much more than this, I did it my way
Yes, there were times, I’m sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew
But through it all, when there was doubt
I ate it up and spit it out
I faced it all and I stood tall and did it my way
I’ve loved, I’ve laughed and cried
I’ve had my fill, my share of losing
And now, as tears subside, I find it all so amusing
To think I did all that
And may I say, not in a shy way,
“Oh, no, oh, no, not me, I did it my way”
For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught
To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels
The record shows I took the blows and did it my way!
Yes, it was my way
61. nige - April 7, 2010
Further to answer Elena L. …..
This frigging money situation that made everyone uncomfortable …. for God’s sake it almost cost me my life. The other Elena (married Haven) has opened so many doors to the beautiful tool of self-questioning that leads to the Free State of Selfhood in Service of Humanity. The willingness to give, to the extent that it hurts our very being, but those are growing pains to Soul Maturity. I think we can all recognize ’surfacey’ people and we can all recognize those who are the Survivors and Followers of Destiny. Blessings…..Nigel.
62. wildz - April 8, 2010
Nigel, can you explain what you mean by :
“I think we can all recognize ’surfacey’ people and we can all recognize those who are the Survivors and Followers of Destiny.” In the context of replying to Elena L
Many thanks
63. nige - April 8, 2010
62 wildz
Pardon my choice of words…..I suppose they made sense to me in the overcharged state in which I have found myself at the end of my day. By surfacey I meant to convey anyone who is by nature living mostly by ‘the mask’ – persona, personality – and who has not been ‘cut to the quick’ by their play. The post to Elena was actually a curtailed version of a more descriptive one about how the ‘little play’ with the Ceremonial Silver Set was part of a larger picture in which I had undergone, in my own life, The Divine Comedy, – a process akin to what Gurdjieff described as awakening (to our essence possibilities as I would see it now) dying (to the core of our being – again, my choice of words, which I hope will make sense to you now) and the rebirth to the full-flowering of our spiritual nature. There are many who were more involved in the machinations of the FOF and whose play had an effect on how they exited and wish to presently position themselves. Do you think this subject is worth further ‘mileage’ to help the blog aim?…..Nigel.
64. ton - April 8, 2010
dear elena,
you don’t like my ‘tone’ eh? i’ve made no personal attacks, believe me, i wish you only well-being. what i have done is to question a few of your assumptions and preconceptions — apparently this rubs you the wrong way. if you are used to the notion that you are always right, and that your opinion counts more, then by now a certain kind of response should be expected… the soap box is no substitute for a little self-reflective analysis so i hope my ‘needling’ can at least give you pause to think. no, you don’t know everything, in fact you know almost nothing if you can’t get past identification with ego and the little self… you complained that i “pick on a little something and neglect the whole idea…” i say that the whole is contained in the parts, even if you can’t see it… anthropocentric humanism is at the root of the problem, from your current perspective you may not see it but inherent in this doctrine you’re preaching is human egotism writ large. there are alternatives to ‘ego’ based biases…. as a philosopher, scholar and ‘author’ you might want to do more research — for example, for a critique of the ‘ego-logical’ perspective see: rozak, naess, fisher, metzner, mckenna, et al, and see whitehead’s process-relational theory.
“What Humanist theories do not allow for is the fact that a system of ethics formulated from a human perspective may not be entirely accurate; humans are not the centre of reality. Spinoza argued that we tend to assess things wrongly in terms of their usefulness to us. Spinoza reasoned that if we were to look at things objectively we would discover that everything in the universe has a unique value…. a human-centred or anthropocentric ethic is not an accurate depiction of reality, there is a bigger picture….”
65. Elena - April 8, 2010
Thanks Ton for your observation, I will carefully meditate on it.
Nigel, I don’t know what you mean about adobe reading my posts. If you’re talking about a different site to this one, please contact me at tabluttatgmaildotcom. Thanks.
I just received this email from JStreet. I don’t need to be Jewish to be human so I signed this petition and hope others here might be inclined to do so. This was just a site I happened to come across and left my name for further references, there was nowhere to tell them that I wasn’t a jew. You can find Jstreet on the internet if you would like to sign it.
I believe it would be wonderfully healing for Fellowship cult members and ex-members to realize that the Fellowship is not the only institution that functions like a cult and that millions of jews in Israel have been equally conned to behave as if they were in a cult, in fact when one looks at the way kibbuts were put together it is clear that they participated in very similar mechanisms and are now acting against those around them and the rest of humanity as if they were the “chosen ones”.
The internet is changing the relations of power all over the world, it is the most democratic invention we’ve witnessed in our lifetime, what a great joy!
Tell PM Netanyahu We Want a Democratic and Pluralistic Israel
Sign Our Petition
Full petition text follows below.
Prime Minister Netanyahu:
We, American Jewish supporters of Israel, are deeply concerned. Israel is rightfully proud of its democracy and its membership in the group of nations that value justice, freedom and the rule of law.
In recent months a disturbing picture has emerged of nationalist extremism that would stifle dissent and erode Israeli democracy. The threat has become all too clear to anyone who connects the dots:
* Women led away from the Western Wall in handcuffs for daring to wear prayer- shawls there, and their leader detained and interrogated;
* Dozens of activists unlawfully detained for peacefully protesting in East Jerusalem, and the longstanding peaceful protests in Bi’lin now outlawed;
* A former Deputy Speaker of the Knesset defamed in a virulent smear campaign against Israel’s leading human rights organizations, with images reminiscent of propaganda from the darkest days of Jewish history;
* The fundamental freedom of Israel’s vitally important civil society under threat from Knesset legislation that would selectively label some NGOs as “political” – in the manner of Russia, China and Iran;
* Women forced to sit in the back of segregated busses with support from the ministry of transportation.
* Years of effort to achieve recognition for Reform and Conservative Jews again threatened by a proposed law preventing recognition of non-Orthodox conversions in Israel.
Israel is a Jewish and democratic state, and it must not jeopardize its standing as a democratic nation. As a democracy, the rights of all its citizens must be upheld and safeguarded, and freedom of speech, conscience and belief respected by the government and private citizens alike.
We call on you, Prime Minister Netanyahu, to stand with us and with all those working to strengthen a democratic and pluralistic Israel.
Sincerely,
Sign Now, Add your Voice
66. No Kid - April 8, 2010
About the kids…
25 Wildz:
“I took him out of Lewis Carroll and enrolled him in public school. Not long after I was called with a message from Robert, “You are traitor to c influence.”
NK responds: Far far better IMO to be “a traitor to c-influence” than to betray your boy. Glad to hear that you intervened when he was being hurt.
#58 Elena L:
“…our new baby boy. He is now 26…ask for a donation…. At that moment, I appreciated the call, but in denying the request, I felt newly freed!”
NK responds: What a wonderful birthday present to your son: his parents free and able to rear him without dubious organizational entanglements.
Kudos to all the fierce parents out there.
I’m one, too. Nobody messes with my kid
because then they’d have to deal with
me…and I am definitely – No Kid
67. Elena - April 8, 2010
Ton: “anthropocentric humanism is at the root of the problem, from your current perspective you may not see it but inherent in this doctrine you’re preaching is human egotism writ large. there are alternatives to ‘ego’ based biases…. as a philosopher, scholar and ‘author’ you might want to do more research — for example, for a critique of the ‘ego-logical’ perspective see: rozak, naess, fisher, metzner, mckenna, et al, and see whitehead’s process-relational theory.
“What Humanist theories do not allow for is the fact that a system of ethics formulated from a human perspective may not be entirely accurate; humans are not the centre of reality. Spinoza argued that we tend to assess things wrongly in terms of their usefulness to us. Spinoza reasoned that if we were to look at things objectively we would discover that everything in the universe has a unique value…. a human-centred or anthropocentric ethic is not an accurate depiction of reality, there is a bigger picture….””
Sounds great Ton, would you share what you understand as the bigger picture? and what you’ve understood about what I am saying just to make sure that we’re on the same platform?
68. Elena - April 8, 2010
Ton, just to clarify, I am asking because what I am saying is so new to me that I hadn’t realized it was all that structured for you to come with this observation so it would be very helpful if you tell me what it is that you are understanding since it seems to be so clear to you.
69. ton - April 8, 2010
elena,
i think we’re definitely not “on the same platform” — but that’s ok. no need to be sarcastic, clarity is an ongoing lifelong process, we both know that, and no need for disingenuousness, if you truly meant what you said, and were to “carefully meditate on it” then there would be no reason for me to elaborate (a hint: when you “carefully meditate” too quickly, you miss the point). regarding “isms” — do your “homework,” another ongoing lifelong process — i offered a few indications of where i’ve looked for a “bigger picture” (here are a couple more… thomas berry, wendell berry), but as far as that goes (“the bigger picture” that is), the possibilities are endless and it depends entirely on you. you see elena, we have this wonderful informational resource literally at our fingertips but what do we do with it? like most things that are used it can also be ab-used, unfortunately there are too many examples, but one that comes to mind in this connection is:
http://thefellowshipoffriends.wikispaces.com/message/list/home there are many others… think about it, or don’t, but consider this; IF you think you already “know it all” and you’re unwilling to consider other perspectives, THEN you’re not going to be interested in what’s potentially available, and of course we all have our little personal agenda to attend to… but you know all this already… right? speaking generally, one aim of “self-examination” is to “get over yourself” and this should at least free you up and point you in the direction of a “bigger picture.” i hope this helps… otherwise, i gladly leave the soapbox to you.
70. Elena - April 8, 2010
Dialogue
Wretched Doubt:
Here I come
To convince your might
That you are mine
I:
Yes… perhaps…
I’m glad you’ve come…
Do sit, no, no, perhaps not now
I was about to “ground”.
Wretched doubt:
Ha, ha, ha,
You don’t understand
Where could you “ground”
when you can’t even stand?
Ha, ha, ha
I:
Do you think so?
Yes, maybe.
Who knows where
Who knows what
I never was
Wretched doubt:
Ha, ha, ha,
Ha, ha, ha
You are mine
To keep and fry!
I:
Love perhaps…
Would have allowed?
Wretched doubt:
Love? You mad?
I:
Enough love perhaps…
Would give the child
The robe of being,
The light of life?
Wretched doubt:
Ha, ha, ha,
What love you speak about
When so little of it is left by now?
I:
A circle then?
My fellow men?
Like soil for the plant to emerge?
Would that have helped me stand by now?
Wretched doubt:
You make me laugh so loud,
What ground but bog is found?
I:
Inside my self then could I have found
A whirling world
The dervish ground?
Wretched Doubt:
What self? What self?
The void is wide
You wretched soul
What self by now?
I:
In the deep cave of the wretched self
In which I drown
In that deep cave in which I rest my soul
Without hope or joy
Tell me, tell me now,
Is my self in that deep cave where I die
and still subside?
Wretched Doubt:
Hellas! Hellas! I’m drowned!
71. Elena - April 8, 2010
Hi Ton,
I hope you enjoy the little poem I just wrote while thinking about your post.
Thanks for introducing me to these great characters. Researching on Mckenna I found Erik Davis’ Techgnosis great site and a wonderful article on Gilles Deleuze that I just posted at
http://battlesword.blogspot.com/2010/04/beautiful-article-about-gilles-deleuze.html
Beautiful! It must have inspired me to write a poem!
By your answer to my question it is clear that you really don’t understand me or what is worse, trust me. Trust, yes, such a difficult thing to recover after we’ve rolled down the street struggling with each other. But even without trust, as long as we can keep rolling down the street we might actually learn to hop between the bumps and sing along with it. Will you promise me that if I help you smile, you’ll play with me?
I think I got a gist of what you are implying by your posts so let me try it out again and make it as short as I can so as not to offend the passers by.
Humanism as I am understanding it, has nothing in opposition with the magic that all these authors, in my short and superficial look at them, propose. Please realize that I am not inventing humanism, just understanding it and a substantial aspect of it is in any System you might look at. If you look at Deleuze’s article, it is very easy to realize that he is supporting my own statements that we must go beyond our class, nationality, religion, etc, etc, etc, to be truly human. Let me make that more clear: we must go beyond our identification with class, nationality, religion, etc, beyond and within and then from inside of “them” let ourselves be more truly ourselves, more fully that which we were given to be. Non-identification does not mean the rejection of one’s class, nationality or religion but rather the penetration of such realities into their very soul to allow one to be truly human. “Truly human” is not the linear sequence property offered us and enslaved us with convinced that by owning things we owned our selves! Non-identification does not mean the negation of who and what we are as the cult induces in its members, it means that one can allow for the reality of one’s conditions and conditionings to live themselves out without mechanically determining our response to the world. i.e. if I was born in the South of US it doesn’t mean I have to belong to the ku-klux-klan or that I have to drink coffee if I am Colombian. All the magic that these authors you mention seem to be bringing to our door is directly connected to the idea of higher states. They are simply and clearly talking about what was understood as high states in the cult and there is nothing “not human” about them. Previous to our time the Church might have made such states the power of a few authorities but today we swim and drown in them like beetles in a can of flies!
Everything they seem to have experienced and talked about in the book followed by anti-oedipus sounds like experiences of states of non-identification or third and fourth states or whatever you want to call them in their respective system.
I had picked the following passage:
Both Anti-Oedipus and its 1980 sequel A Thousand Plateaus were subtitled “Capitalism and Schizophrenia.” The authors contended that capitalism is balanced between its limitless production and the need to socially “codify” this energy in order to keep it under control. The first pole is fragmented and expansive; the second is paranoid and repressive. Deleuze and Guattari saw schizophrenia as an active “multiplicity,” a localized revolutionary force that liberated one from the confines of psychological subjectivity and the fascistic forms of the State.
Elena: NICE! Yes, it has both potentials: that of becoming an schizophrenic narcissistic sociopath like Robert, Mr. Haven and each in the FOF cult in the paranoid and repressive aspects or… the other kind!… the wonderfully creative people of all times that escape towards life!
What we are able to understand today is that PRECISELY those forms of power are the ones that developed the two personality hasnamousses that people continue to idolize in the fellowship cult.
Mckenna seems to have had his wonderful share of ayahuasca, here in Colombia in fact, says the article, but if you remember, what any of these mushrooms or plants do is catalyze the necessary mechanism in our body that will free the actual substance that gives the high state. The REAL magic is not in the ayahuasca or mushroom but in the human being, which brings us to the fact that we can “liberate” these states
if we ourselves become the catalysts. Prolonged non-identification goes exactly through the same process: a release of fixed mental, emotional and physical structures that inevitably change the chemical inner “imbalance” and free the I to access other realms.
When an individual stops his or her self from ignoring the waiter that just came to the table because he is only a waiter, the entire universe shifts up a scale and we become more human!
Many people do that naturally because they never learnt not to do it but when all our so called “civilized” world consciously learns to do it, we’ll actually “dine”!
I was hoping you would give us the pleasure of your thoughts and not make me answer you a long post such as this right away but here it is.
Have a great day, thanks for sharing!
72. Golden Veil - April 8, 2010
*
This is about experiencing the world.
*
73. ton - April 8, 2010
golden veil,
haven’t heard of david whyte…. powerful. thanks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
dear elena, you end with:
“I was hoping you would give us the pleasure of your thoughts and not make me answer you a long post such as this right away but here it is.”
elena, elena…. elena, am i not writing words? are these not thoughts? you see elena, what you wrote here is a way of dismissing and discounting me as someone who may not entirely agree with you… and in the process you’re making excuses for yourself…. let’s be clear, i’m not making you do anything. what am i saying here elena? are these not thoughts? what are you missing? i will add that i know that you know that i’m not in complete disagreement with you… for example:
“we must go beyond our class, nationality, religion, etc, etc, etc, to be truly human. Let me make that more clear: we must go beyond our identification with class, nationality, religion, etc,”
imo the above is a start in the right direction but it doesn’t go nearly far enough… it’s only a beginning.
you wrote:
“what any of these mushrooms or plants do is catalyze the necessary mechanism in our body that will free the actual substance that gives the high state. The REAL magic is not in the ayahuasca or mushroom but in the human being, which brings us to the fact that we can “liberate” these states
if we ourselves become the catalysts.”
oh really? gee elena, you make yourself sound like an expert on these matters… how much actual experience have you had with these “substances”?
don’t get me wrong, i’m not advocating the taking of these “substances” — the point you seem to miss in all this is that there is in fact A RELATIONSHIP between the biota and human beings. but due to a conditioned blindness, you place the human above the rest of creation and THAT IS PRECISELY THE PROBLEM… it’s why i’m saying that even so called “humanism” with all of these seemingly well intentioned “humanistic, people first” impulses, even all the lovable causes out there related to “human rights” — it’s still a form of human hubris and egotism, albeit on a mass scale. this is not to say or imply that there isn’t a ‘righteousness’ about it and that it isn’t a step in the right direction…. but it is after all a just a step.
the dialogue in this video may represent another step… but even this is couched in anthropocentric terms…. i believe the essential question is: “how to be more than human?”
74. Elena - April 9, 2010
I see Ton. So for you we must first have an ecologic consciousness and that is more important than having a human consciousness. Now I understand you. Thank you for at last sharing what you think the priorities are.
It reminds me of a program on T.V. I saw yesterday with a man in Africa who has to look after one of the parks that one of the international organizations protects and he says: here we are dying of hunger and all you do is help us look after these animals but do not care about our lives. We have an arm and the permission to kill any of our people if they try to hunt animals.
So yes, I continue to believe human consciousness is the priority. All is One includes that consciousness of nature that is so significant to you. Everything else this man says is included in what I’ve been understanding. It is not new, I am just clearing myself about it and hope that in the process the tremendous confusion and isolation that was implanted in so many of us in the Fellowship cleans itself out somewhat.
About this substances, you must know I am a Colombian, some of them are born here or rather we are born with them here! By the time I was eighteen I decided that I was interested in finding my own way of becoming the catalyst.
Thank you for sharing.
75. nige - April 9, 2010
This wasn’t quite the song lyrics that I wanted to search for and share…..my day and the sharing of dreams stated working and going to fulfilment had a high-point with a broadcast on Radio in Bob Harris’s of Beth Chapman’s song ‘How we Love’ investigate it until it moves you – intelligent lyrics and mellifluating melody. Her pasted a hint of how she affected me…..
Seems like after all we’ve been through
We would have learned by now
Never to fight for gets the last word
It doesn’t matter anyhow
But ’round and ’round we go in circles
Trying to work things through
And sometimes it feels like miles between us
But I keep coming back to you
CHORUS:
And it’s rough
And it’s tough
And it’s harder than anything I’ve ever tried to do
But I love you so much that in spite of the struggle
I keep coming back to you
Hold me now, just think about this room
That we have shared so long
We’ve studied that map of cracks on the ceiling
Talking till the break of dawn
There is something strong as history
Telling me this love is true
They say “Follow your heart and you’ll be happy”
So I keep coming back to you
76. ton - April 9, 2010
74
“I see Ton. So for you we must first have an ecologic consciousness and that is more important than having a human consciousness. Now I understand you.”
dear elena,
no, apparently you don’t understand me, you would like to THINK you understand but that’s where understanding stops…. you see elena, understanding is not “thought terminating,” understanding is another of those ongoing lifelong processes, it doesn’t stop and if it does, it’s no longer understanding. it’s obvious to me that you really don’t understand, you are more interested in being “right” and thereby “in control” than you are in understanding. you surmise: “ecologic consciousness is more important than having a human consciousness” — no elena, you’re thinking in ‘black OR white’ when in fact they’re integral, one does not negate the other. i’m surprised at you elena, you with all your grandstanding about “ONENESS” and being connected… your limitation lies in how you define what being human means. one thing is certain, and for many this is a very difficult lesson to learn because the illusion is so deeply ingrained: the universe does not revolve around you and “yours.”
“About this substances, you must know I am a Colombian, some of them are born here or rather we are born with them here!”
i asked about your actual (personal) experience but you’re avoiding the question… a friendly word of advice: you shouldn’t speak of which you know not.
all the best
77. Elena - April 9, 2010
Hi Ton and All,
At least I am not negating your premises as you have done with me rejecting whatever I say as not good enough. You just seem to be turning around trying to get the upper-hand over me but really saying the same things that I am saying only the technique is, negating them, saying I better go and research more and when I did and offered them to you, you said I was on the right track but still not good enough.
Good enough for what? Not complete enough for whom? Is a dialogue supposed to be enough, the totality? Why would you expect the mind to grasp more than is allotted to it? Why do you expect the intellect to supply what you yourself must provide? The love and the meaning and the wish to communicate healthily?
About those substances they are children’s play compared to the real thing. I’ll extend on the real thing in a different post if you wish. They have traditionally been used only for initiation rites for they are only a glimpse of their reality and not one we should have gotten lost in en masse as generations are doing today. No one should take these substances more than a handful of times. Have you seen how passive people who have taken marihuana for decades become? Passive and self-conscious and paranoid? And how people in cocaine can’t stop talking? Or in the cow dung mushroom, stop laughing? Or the horrors of “crack”?
The amanitas muscaria or Flykiller is the sacred mushroom in the Rig Veda. That is another story and still they themselves let you know not to mess around with them. And then there is the cacao sabanero. You can take it if you want to know what hell is like- many never come back from it. I’ve seen wonderfully smart people become like vegetables. There are official places here where you can take ayahuasca for twenty five dollars and the guidance of a shaman. Many people are profiting not only from connecting to ayahuasca but from connecting to the native cultures and shamans who have wide knowledge of this practices. All these substances when abused depress the I because they become active in the I’s realm and have to shun it. When the individual is not ready for the experience (and they are never ready if they are having to have it induced, which is why it is only an initiation rite), the drug lives itself out on the individual himself and while it gains power over him he loses power over his own self as we have clearly seen not only in every drug addiction but in every cult addiction, including the regular forms of “falling in love” that are so humanly practiced. That “ love intoxication” is in reality enough for us to deal with, without having to indulge in the abuse of substances.
I did not extend myself on this in the last post because I didn’t want to repeat myself. I have already spoken about these things somewhere on this blog before and thought you were aware of them.
I would ask you kindly to make an effort to keep our conversation to the realm of ideas without treading negatively on each other’s very personal realm. This is very difficult indeed and I have probably been the one who most strongly does it which is why I am asking you to help me. Being able to have a profitable conversation is an expression of the “being” of a community and in this blog-community it is clear that we go from people who agree with everything and cannot have a dialogue to people who disagree in everything and cannot have dialogue. People who cannot go beyond the personal attacks to the realm of ideas or people who are in the realm of ideas and cannot extend them to their personal sphere. All these “disconnectednesses” are aspects of our state of development as a community or “group” if you would rather, for yes, we are far from being a community even of human beings.
Recovering our selves from the cult’s destructiveness, rigidity and expressionless will certainly mean recovering the capacity to participate socially from our own self and not again from an imaginary made up mask that is buffering the possibility of being that self. It is very difficult for any one of us to expose our selves when we are afraid of being shunned, ridiculed or made sarcasm of, when not directly insulted, instead of simply being heard even if there is no agreement. We are not here to agree but to be and help, (if that is ever possible), members inside the Fellowship cult, be. They are not being right now, they are sacrificing themselves in a self-destructive cult.
When people are very vulnerable as many of us are and by vulnerable I mean, people who are not comfortable in themselves, they are desperately needing self affirmation but precisely because we are not comfortable with our selves, we come out as confronting and opposing the other person, which is what we can clearly see in Ton’s and my recent interaction and almost every interaction I had particularly previous to being banned.
Surely we will continue to live this out (if we give ourselves the chance) for quite a while still but if we take a look at the history of the blog, and see ourselves, all of us have become a lot less aggressive than we were when we started. Bruce doesn’t just FUCK everything and everyone all the time, (no matter how accurate those fucks seemed to be), those that only insulted all the time have mostly left and while I was out, few were left that talk but barely dialogue with the blog promising to disappear. Can we “be” and communicate? Disappearing is of course a possibility and being identified with the life a blog is not the cult we are in now, but I am personally much happier in a blog where we have already tried our selves than looking for other people to start again and still think this one can be a viable reference for those still under the grip of the Fellowship cult.
I give you my word that I will try to make my posts much shorter in the future or at least twice as effective if I cannot avoid the length. I am definitely here because I appreciate our background not only in this blog but what we share in common about the System as much as about the Fellowship cult and LIFE, always LIFE.
78. ton - April 9, 2010
“I did not extend myself on this in the last post because I didn’t want to repeat myself. I have already spoken about these things somewhere on this blog before and thought you were aware of them. I would ask you kindly to make an effort to keep our conversation to the realm of ideas without treading negatively on each other’s very personal realm.”
elena,
well thank you for extending yourself, what you’ve written is revealing something… and by the way, when have you ever balked at repeating yourself? although it sounds like you’re wanting to change the subject, (and i realize that this may be a little bit of a sidetrack), please indulge me just a bit more as i follow a thread in the hope of getting at the truth, because i believe that an important part of being able to have a “profitable conversation” (as you put it), requires an implicit integrity and honesty.
it feels to me like you’re wanting to change the subject here because you’re backed into a corner, it sounds like you have no actual first-hand, personal experience with these “substances,” and no, living in columbia is not what i mean by an actual experiential encounter… it sounds like you may know something about the subject from an outside perspective but that you really don’t know it intimately, that is. from the inside out… and that’s ok, i’m not going to “judge” you because you’ve never eaten one of these compounds, and i’m certainly not here to convince you to do so… but, what i would suggest is, that you don’t have to dissemble and give vicarious, second and third hand accounts and expect it to be a substitute for the experiential. it’s better just to admit – at least to yourself – when your knowledge is limited to a certain extent… it’s more honest that way and with honesty we be able to proceed with a more “profitable conversation.”
you see elena, you may be fooling yourself but you’re not fooling me when you mix-up and group all these “compounds and substances” into a single category as you do, to me that’s a telltale sign… it shows that from an experiential perspective you don’t really know what you’re talking about. if you’d had an actual personal encounter with ANY so-called “entheogen” then you would know better than to lump it in with drug abuse or any so-called “recreational drugs.”
79. 2010 - April 9, 2010
Elena-
You talk too much.
80. Elena - April 9, 2010
Ton: elena,
well thank you for extending yourself, what you’ve written is revealing something… and by the way, when have you ever balked at repeating yourself?
Elena: Thank you for thinking that a dialogue is worth between us and asking me to extend myself. I am balking now at repeating myself because I will no longer give too much time to something we’ve already tread on. Repeating our selves viciously is another way of recurring and destiny evades us.
Ton: although it sounds like you’re wanting to change the subject,
Elena: I am not only wanting to change the subject but wanting to not over-impose my own views in this forum by sheer quantity. And I am also not interested in proving my self RIGHT to you. I understand I may be wrong and can still be here and that is enough for me. People who agree to everything that is happening as we did in the Fellowship cult are as dangerous to life and freedom as people who are unable to agree on anything and must look for something to prove the other person out. Rightness is not the same as righteousness and every time we are right to each other we strengthen each other’s being. The capacity of “resilience” is not only possible in individuals, it is just as necessary in communities.
Ton: (and i realize that this may be a little bit of a sidetrack), please indulge me just a bit more as i follow a thread in the hope of getting at the truth, because i believe that an important part of being able to have a “profitable conversation” (as you put it), requires an implicit integrity and honesty.
Elena: I tell you right away that you will only get as far as what is true for you and not truth and that will already be plenty. Your tone and words and persistence in trying to prove me out shows a pathological ingredient in you for you do not converse or in any way share your own experiences about the subject and enrich me or anyone else with them, you are here simply to prove that I am not being honest or that everything I say is not enough or that as you have tried before, that I am not in a condition to speak and should be banned. Let me tell you right away that my freedom to speak here does not come from you but from my love for Freedom of Speech.
Ton: it feels to me like you’re wanting to change the subject here because you’re backed into a corner,
Elena: backed into a corner by your ridiculously aggresive behavior, convinced that you are the only truth here? Don’t give yourself so much credit.
Ton: it sounds like you have no actual first-hand, personal experience with these “substances,”
Elena: Do you? When you can’t even relate to the very specific ones I’ve mentioned?
Ton: and no, living in columbia is not what i mean by an actual experiential encounter… it sounds like you may know something about the subject from an outside perspective but that you really don’t know it intimately, that is. from the inside out… and that’s ok, i’m not going to “judge” you because you’ve never eaten one of these compounds, and i’m certainly not here to convince you to do so… but, what i would suggest is, that you don’t have to dissemble and give vicarious, second and third hand accounts and expect it to be a substitute for the experiential. it’s better just to admit – at least to yourself – when your knowledge is limited to a certain extent… it’s more honest that way and with honesty we be able to proceed with a more “profitable conversation.”
Elena: No Ton, I do not have to prove anything to you or tell you of my personal experiences with these substances to convey to you that I know what I am talking about.
Ton: you see elena, you may be fooling yourself but you’re not fooling me when you mix-up and group all these “compounds and substances” into a single category as you do,
Elena: If you cared to read carefully enough you would realize that amanitas muscaria, the sacred mushroom of the rig Vedas, was clearly differentiated from the other substances I talked about.
Ton: to me that’s a telltale sign… it shows that from an experiential perspective you don’t really know what you’re talking about. if you’d had an actual personal encounter with ANY so-called “entheogen” then you would know better than to lump it in with drug abuse or any so-called “recreational drugs.”
Elena: a “telltale” sign Ton? So are you now going to go and tell on me so that you can shame me publicly? Wouldn’t you be delighted if you could do that here again where shaming people is the very essence of what we’ve been feeding on when we have exposed the abuses so common in the Fellowship of Friends. I am so good at it myself Ton, why do you think I would fail to recognize it in you? Shaming people for their actions is what people in anger do and I was so very angry with the Fellowship and so vulnerable but I am no longer in that state and going beyond angering and shaming people is what is necessary to understand the beauty beyond the tragedy. If we are to heal as a community who suffered together, we would do good in taking that step.
I understand this is a forum where people can have a conversation and not a court where people are being tried for crime so I will kindly ask you to stop acting as if you had any right to ask of me things that I do not owe you. If what I am offering you is not good enough for you that is your problem and not mine, that does not give you the right to call me dishonest, thank you. If we had moderation here you would be called on for the absurd attitude that you are unkindly expressing. With all due respect fofblogmoderator, with all due respect and gratitude, the role of a moderator is to protect the participants and help them understand each other, I ask you to do so by intervening when people label someone as being dishonest when there is nothing dishonest about their participation.
Now let’s look at entheogens not for the sake of proving to you that I know what we are talking about but for the sake of the subject itself which is beautiful.
From wikipedia: An entheogen (“creates god within,” en εν- “in, within,” theo θεος- “god, divine,” -gen γενος “creates, generates”),[1] in the strict sense, is a psychoactive substance used in a religious, shamanic or spiritual context. Historically, entheogens were mostly derived from plant sources and have been used in a variety of traditional religious contexts. Most entheogens do not produce drug dependency.[2] With the advent of organic chemistry, there now exist many synthetic substances with similar psychoactive properties. Entheogens are tools to supplement various practices for healing and transcendence, including in meditation, psychonautics, art projects, and psychedelic therapy.
I personally do not agree with the definition of entheogens as substances that “create god within” I would define them more as substances that reveal the God within. And would insist that these are initiatory substances and NOT substances to be abused as we’ve seen in our present societies. They are certainly different in quality, marihuana and cow dung mushrooms are not as “godrevealing” as amanitas muscaria but they nevertheless enter realms beyond our habitual consciousness and expand our perceptions beyond the “known” senses. I have no “scientific” knowledge of these substances, what I am telling you is from personal experience. I would still affirm that amanitas muscaria and ayahuasca are not substances to be taken for anything other than “ritualistic” purposes and that the God within that they reveal can be reached without them. The experience of Godliness when experienced through these substances does not imply that the person will connect to his own self for a prolonged period or that they will know how to reach it again without it. Any one of these experiences when induced with a substance are a before and after event in anyone’s life and yet they are child’s play when compared to the real thing. The “real thing” only has to speak to you once for you to never stop hearing it… or talking about it… perhaps that is why I am so insistent in the need of connectedness.
This is my last post to you Ton. You and I are only two of the many voices here, it will be very good to hear others on many other subjects. I will not indulge in further conversation with you until I hear a more sympathetic tone in your posts and a willingness to give rather than demand. You have no right to demand here- that is not a healthy attitude. We are not forced to be here, we are here willingly. You have a right to share in a conversation but not to position yourself as the judge of whoever is speaking. A blog can be an art-form of love between people or a school forum of immature teenagers to lynch those who the group marginalizes. That is exactly what is happening in society where the poor blokes just take up a gun and shoot everyone around them as protest. If that is what you choose for yourselves it would be no surprise, after all, that is what was widely practiced in the Fellowship cult and people were thrown out like rotten food when they protested. I will leave this one as joyfully and willingly as I left that one and you can carry on with your dictators of how you like things to be. No wonder this blog is dying like the Fellowship, such places don’t carry any life. If we are willing to take a different direction we might one day reach the Golden Age of the Fellowship and be remembered for our amazing ability for resilience or regeneration and not for the repeated failures to act as human beings.
81. Elena - April 9, 2010
Thank you 2010, you on the contrary, talk too little.
82. ton - April 9, 2010
elena, why so defensive? i’ve “demanded” nothing of you… and of course you don’t have anything to prove to me…. a point i’m trying to make has to do with honesty…. because i consider it to be important. let’s briefly review… this thread started when i suggested that there are limits to the anthropocentricism of a doctrine you’ve been espousing which we’ve identified as “humanism.” i did not suggest there was anything wrong with the doctrine or that there is anything wrong with you for supporting it… i merely indicated my opinion of the limitations of said doctrine and in the process suggested avenues of research that have influenced my own perspectives. after your “in depth” research (apparently you perused something by mckenna), you came back with your “informed” conclusions regarding the “REAL magic” — that it’s “in the human being” and etc… i pointed out that this sort of ego-centric species-bias was in fact at the root of the problem and at that point i questioned whether you had ever actually ingested one of these compounds that you so blithely dismiss, because from what i could gather in what you wrote, you didn’t really grok the experience nor the wider implications. i questioned a type of arrogant and blind anthropocentricism which IS the problem… i suggested that you consider the relational aspect in nature which the human species ignores at it’s own peril and destruction….
now back to the point, which is honesty… and i am not accusing you of anything, i am not trying to “shame” you, (i will say that shame implies one has something to hide), and i am certainly not “angry” as you say, i am simply trying to understand where you are coming from…. yes i did read carefully enough to see that you mentioned amanita in the context of the vedas…. now is that supposed to imply that you’ve actually ingested amanita? because that’s not what i took from your history lesson. is there a further point to this little tidbit from the annals of time ? you don’t seem to me like the type of person who would be ashamed of admitting to experimentation…. so i wonder what are you ashamed of? i’m curious to know…
and i really do hope this is not offending you…. that’s truly not my intention… look, i’m not ashamed of my experiences with these things… by the way, i think i’ve related the story here about the night of my 21st birthday, but here it is again briefly: i did ingest one of these substances, i left the party and spent the rest of that balmy july night nestled in the arms of a great elm tree overlooking the lake illumined by a nearly full moon…. as the sun rose, i came down from the tree, and i resolved to search for a “natural” way to experience the profound state of merging – what maurice bucke termed “cosmic consciousness.” soon thereafter i found a “workbook” with one of those insidious bookmarks in it… i telephoned the number, and the rest, as they say, “is history…”
all the best
83. Mariposa - April 10, 2010
No Kid,
Hey Hon, good work posting. Hugs. A.
84. Mariposa - April 10, 2010
Thot Plickens #200
I simply wished to express a gratefulness to nature for bringing Spring to the area ( after a historical winter of snow) and wish fellow ex-members to look forward to a future with positive prospects with my post. I guess you felt a need to devalue this wish, and why? Maybe we all now need to write under an artificial name and surrender our whole life stories in the FOF as “suffering ” to receive a notice in your mind as an authentic memory , and perhaps as well to many other posters . As you may now know, I have been on the GF site for 2 years. I already know your questions and have lived them for 40 yrs. We do have work to do. But, for a moment, for a day, check yourself and study the gifts we have. An appreciation of spring flowers. For Yourself.
Sorry, for the neg. explosion to you today. I’ve got a lot of current problems to work on here on the farm which keep me up all hours and am a bit “ruffled”. Also, No Kid gives me reminders of my youth. .A.
85. Elena - April 10, 2010
Thank you Ton, that is a much more workable tone. I am glad you’ve gotten a grip on yourself and realized that we’re just trying to have a conversation here.
If I remember correctly my account of those experiences is already here somewhere in this blog. To satisfy your curiosity, the first time I took a little of amanitas I realized it was very powerful and it wanted me to clean up so I prepared for two weeks before taking it again, then I went back to that marvelous place for they only grow in particularly beautiful forests, usually pine forests in my country. It wanted to teach me how to breathe! So this army of mosquitoes started walking around my face and the idea was that they could only walk through the bridge of my nose if I breathed properly!!! It took a long time before one of them actually crossed the bridge and I was ecstatic of course and Godlike but it made me very exited so I began to breathe too fast and they again couldn’t cross the bridge so we started again each time with more intense Godliness!!! It’s very funny now but I must admit, my first gurus were mosquitoes!! I was lying on a bed while this massage was going on and a friend who was also up at the farm walked by and saw all these mosquitoes on my face and got the fright of his life thinking I’d died and the mosquitoes were already getting at me! Oh it’s so good to laugh!! So he started moving me and getting the mosquitoes out and I was so disappointed but I knew he wouldn’t understand if I told him to leave my gurus alone!! I was much surprised though when looking at a book years later, saw that they were called, amanitas muscaria or amanitas matamoscas which means mosquitoe killers.
It invited me into the sacred but what it conveyed to me very clearly was that everything I had experienced belonged to it and that my job was to get there without it. In another occasion I not only took a little more but gave my beautiful golden retriever two petals which was very little and after a while he sat there and looked at me for a long time. THAT was difficult. Dogs do not hold their site to humans for too long but Arrow just stared at me and what he told me or rather asked me was, why did you give me this, what do you want me to do with this, I am a dog, as if he were literally saying, you want me to be conscious of the fact that I am a dog? It was very “painful” not because there was anything wrong with being a dog but because he couldn’t do much with it anyway. I very much regretted having given him any. Fortunately it eventually wore off and we went back to being a dog and a seventeen year old on her way to study in Belgium and away from the all too intense highs of Colombia.
This is why I love writing and sharing because this story made me realize that when I experienced the real thing there was also suffering like for Arrow. That suffering. That very particular kind of suffering in which one knows that one might just die in the experience and that it is alright to do so, that one wouldn’t stop it for a second. I was thinking after that post that after you connect with the real, it wishes to penetrate everything like water, burn like fire, give life like Earth and breathe like air. It is like the power of love: life.
Compared to the experience with amanitas, think of the real as a thousand times more powerful than “substances” then you’ll understand when I tell you that they are difficult to bare and live through. I was only totally paralysed for two days the first time about three weeks after I joined the Fellowship but they say Ezequiel would spend years in bed. I guess those are the states the masts live in. I haven’t actually experienced such states for years. Shortly after I started living with Girard and working, working, working for the sake of working, working, working on being Fellowship “efficient”, they stopped happening and I soon became another conformist automaton.
So good to be out! Cheers!
86. ton - April 10, 2010
“Thank you Ton, that is a much more workable tone. I am glad you’ve gotten a grip on yourself and realized that we’re just trying to have a conversation here.”
elena,
you’re confused, it was you who lost your grip, not i….(“This is my last post to you Ton”).
you’ll have to forgive me if the “conversation” here is not to your liking, but i feel compelled to respond to you as honestly as i can… and i don’t need to point out that this format does not conform to the norms of conventional “face-to-face” conversation and social interaction… there is a certain freedom that the relative anonymity of the situation provides… one CAN ’speak’ in a different way here, responding more freely and expressing feelings that might not be spoken of in a ‘normal’ formal face-to-face encounter. so i’ll ‘warn’ you now, i will continue to convey my honest responses based how i feel after reading your posts and if it rubs you the wrong way, then so be it.
speaking of ‘tone’ — there is a general impression i often get when reading your posts… you’re dismissive of another who happens to challenge or disagree with you, you attempt to marginalize and diminish the other, seemingly in order to feel in control and “superior” to… you feel the need to be in control… we all do to some extent, but some more than others… i think that the need to control can be an over-compensation based on the fear of a loss of control… what do you think? i think leaving the cult behind represents a tremendous loss of control… the structure that formerly helped give a sense of self are suddenly gone… it’s a difficult adjustment, it takes time.
even though you’re not revealing much, here’s an example of a situation in which it sounds like you lost control and it scared you:
“Compared to the experience with amanitas, think of the real as a thousand times more powerful than “substances” then you’ll understand when I tell you that they are difficult to bare and live through.”
maybe it’s just me but, another impression i often get when reading your posts is one of condescension…. when i read the above, to me it suggests or implies that the reader does not understand or has no experience with “the real” as you put it… that “the real” is something that you are specially privy to, that “the real” is something the reader will understand only by you telling him about it… maybe you wanted to explain or say more about it? maybe it’s a language thing…? but i don’t think so, your command of english seems better than mine and i’m a “native speaker” — so if it’s not an issue with the language then what i’m sensing is an attitudinal thing… an inferiority/superiority complex…. but which is it, inferiority or superiority?
87. Elena - April 10, 2010
Hi Ton and All,
Thanks Ton for the ongoing analysis, I also believe it’s a worthwhile one. So let’s see.
In this last post and the one before you are engaging with me, not demanding of me as you were in the previous ones. In the one before this one you still had a demeanouring attitude but it was already much softer than in the ones before so I complied as generously as I could.
If you take a look at our whole conversation maybe you’ll notice that we actually stand for the same things but the antagonism comes in how I or you are doing it. We should have already learnt this in the Fellowship: that standing for the same ideals does not mean that in our daily life we actually practice them: Robert is just another human being trying to live out his life but ended up enslaving thousands who shared similar ideals. I think he had the talent for it and we helped him a great deal. As if immature “essences” in adults in idealistic cults lead to criminal pathologic relationships.
The healthy attitude that I think would have been possible for you or is possible for you and us in the future is that when one looks at a post and thinks one can enhance it with one’s understanding then one enhances it as you are in fact doing in this one without ridiculous little personal attacks or ridiculing the other person which is what I mean by getting out of grip about what is actually happening. If we don’t assume that the other person is participating in “good faith” we are already failing to grant them a “human” condition.
It’s good that we are clear about the fact that even if posts are not of our liking, we can still share in the conversation as equals.
Ton: speaking of ‘tone’ — there is a general impression i often get when reading your posts… you’re dismissive of another who happens to challenge or disagree with you, you attempt to marginalize and diminish the other, seemingly in order to feel in control and “superior” to… you feel the need to be in control… we all do to some extent, but some more than others…
E. Sure, I’ve probably done that plenty and the more I look at it the more it seems to be an aspect of having been very weak and vulnerable after leaving the FOF and the lack of a strong family and social environment but if we look deeper we can see that the tapestry of our conversation is in fact much deeper than the tapestry of our convictions. I don’t quite know how to put it but I’ll get there. We clearly struggle with each other even if we substantially agree about the principles and where that “struggle” happens is where the real thing is. We are all think we are human but when we confront each other our inconsistencies clearly appear.
Ton: even though you’re not revealing much, here’s an example of a situation in which it sounds like you lost control and it scared you:
“Compared to the experience with amanitas, think of the real as a thousand times more powerful than “substances” then you’ll understand when I tell you that they are difficult to bare and live through.”
Oh yes, one definitely loses control in those states, like with entheogens, only that entheogens were in my case mild enough to not create suffering. Definitely scary no matter how wonderful, like winning a huge lottery and knowing everything about life will change.
Ton: maybe it’s just me but, another impression i often get when reading your posts is one of condescension…. when i read the above, to me it suggests or implies that the reader does not understand or has no experience with “the real” as you put it… that “the real” is something that you are specially privy to, that “the real” is something the reader will understand only by you telling him about it… maybe you wanted to explain or say more about it? maybe it’s a language thing…?
E. No, I can see where and why you would feel that and yes, that is probably the other side of not feeling strong within myself and at the same time in the context of how you presented the conversation in which what I was understanding was that for you entheogens are the culminating wonder of creation (being a little sarcastic about it), I was trying to convey the difference.
Ton: but i don’t think so, your command of english seems better than mine and i’m a “native speaker” — so if it’s not an issue with the language then what i’m sensing is an attitudinal thing… an inferiority/superiority complex…. but which is it, inferiority or superiority?
Elena: This is important because what I’ve noticed is that we all give each other these acts of superiority/inferiority roles. We are all competing for credibility, space, acknowledgement, love, friendship even if we all agree about the basic tenets. We are talking in a definite context Ton and the things we’ve gone through here are extremely complex. Let me round this off quickly here so that we have an ongoing analysis and I don’t try to pack it in all in one post.
I think we each have a strength, a life and a direction and we are each powerful in that area. I have, like every one of you, a few and what has traditionally happened here is that they are dismissed and instead of us taking on an analysis of what is being said, we’ve ended up violently attacking each other. The downside of those attacks is that we are all pretty hurt but the up side of them is that, imho, we’ve shed a great deal of unnecessary luggage. We’ve almost skinned our selves clean. What we’ve shed and will continue to shed is a lot of the imaginary picture we had about what it means to be American or Colombian, this or that class, education, etc. All that should have happened in the Fellowship had it been a real School because the opportunity we have now is to deal with each other as human beings and live out that ideal in our interchanges. If we limit ourselves to being friendly to each other because we share the same programming and essence, then we can leave this Forum and each go and join our nation and feel good about our selves in it but the times are dry for that crop. I believe we live in a time in which our particular strengths and conditionings need to come up to what is human in them and we can share even while disagreeing. The subjects we are dealing with are not easy, they are extremely painful, or at least those are the ones I am not willing to avoid. I believe we have learnt something crucial about inhumanity in the Fellowship cult and can put our grain of sand in the current of a more human world. Were I to think that you are not the best recipients of my understandings around it, I would not be participating here. Were I not to value your strengths and understandings, I would not attempt to work with you.
88. Elena - April 10, 2010
P.S. Another nicer way of putting the inferiority/superiority roles complex is that we are each struggling for space in each other’s being. When that love is denied to us by hierarchic justifications and acted out in concrete manifestations of inequality, we legitimately struggle. That is what life is about!
Big hug!!!
89. ton - April 10, 2010
elena,
“in the context of how you presented the conversation in which what I was understanding was that for you entheogens are the culminating wonder of creation…”
you see, here is where we run into problems over and over again. it has to do with the fact that you’re reading things into what is being conveyed… this is not just a problem with you, it can be a general problem in communication…. there is a message but the interpretation distorts it.
so let’s be clear, if you go back and review what i have written here, i’ve never said or even implied that “entheogens are the culminating wonder etc.” in fact if you follow this thread back to around 71, you’ll find that it was YOU who first brought up the subject of ingesting these substances, so in the interest of keeping our facts straight let’s go over this again…. how did we get to this point?
from the beginning, i suggested that ‘humanism’ has it’s limitations, not that it is entirely bad, but that there are certainly biases connected to the doctrine… i suggested alternatives in the form of authors, who imo take a broader perspective than the one you are espousing and representing… (is that possible elena? is it possible that someone may have a broader perspective?). i mentioned a number of philosophers but you latched onto something you picked up in a superficial reading of mckenna… and yes he is well known for openly talking about “entheogens” and yes that tends to get a lot of attention because it’s still a “taboo” subject in many respects…. but taking “enteogens” is not the point i was trying to make… so you missed the point, do you see? we got sidetracked here because i questioned your experiences when you seemed to present yourself as expert enough on the subject to casually dismiss the “entheogenic” experience as inconsequential compared to what YOU consider to be “real.”
now i’ll suggest maybe you should go back and really do a little more research on some of the other authors… spinoza, whitehead, thomas berry or wendell berry for example, in their own ways they come to similar types of “conclusions” as mckenna but with absolutely no mention of “entheogens” — see you miss the point when you latched onto the “entheogens” and i still question whether you really understand the deeper implications… (when one has a fearful or unpleasant experience, the natural / “easy” thing to do is to somehow try to bury it or dismiss it).
i will say that if you really took the time to get past the surface and give a more in-depth look at the work of mckenna, you might have discovered that it’s not all about taking “entheogens,” that’s really “the tip of the ice-burg” and such a small part of his philosophical discourse. you see elena, it’s about changing your perspective and thereby changing behavior…. but when you are so convinced that you are “right” in your convictions then changing your perspective will be the last thing on your mind.
90. Elena - April 10, 2010
It is interesting how you think that I don’t acknowledge the whole of what you are saying but here again all you are saying is that I fail and fail and fail and that I have to research and research and research to come to something that you understand but are unwilling to tell us about. I think I would rather fail if you think that I have to go and read all the authors you’ve read to be able to have a conversation with you.
Thank you very much for your time.
91. ton - April 10, 2010
dismissed… again.
92. nige - April 10, 2010
How does REB give a submarine a blow-job?
He creeps up behind it and sucks all the seamen out. n.
and by the way folks – elena not allowing ton to support and nourish…..
truth stands,as the soul (activating higher emotion) thrusting supportively the spirit (higher intellect activated) of itself and knows that when the present unticks the tock of the clock and times of experiencing the present are so knit together that one can no longer not be, really and individually, not according to syetem or dogma there is no need for attack or defence…..Nigel.
93. Elena - April 10, 2010
Yes Ton, the difference is that I dismiss you after I hear you and you dismiss me before we even start.
There are already in the little we’ve talked so many new things that you are missing that what is the point of going on? And then you treat my offering a perception as if it were a finished theory when from the beginning of arriving here I said, I would like to present these ideas so that they can be looked at and destroyed if necessary but instead you say they are not good enough and that I have to work and work and research because I might be wrong but you don’t even look at them in detail, you don’t even consider them seriously. If you really understood what you read, you would be able to share it without evading the question repeatedly.
That is fine. It doesn’t matter if you don’t want to hear. One day someone who wishes to understand will take it home.
Nige, “elena not allowing ton to support and nourish”, if you think someone manipulating you like Robert did with the idea that you can’t know anything, that you’re not good enough until you do everything he says is nourish and support, no wonder you jump back and forth without knowing where to stand. Trust your self Nigel, trust yourself so that you are not swept away by each wave.
94. We Were There - April 10, 2010
2. Elena –
“I would like to apologize… for the obnoxious behavior I managed to get to in my frustration with this whole issue that led to my banning and ask to join this conversation again.”
Elena, can you clarify what you meant by ‘this whole issue?’
95. nige - April 10, 2010
Sorry Elena
But I have no difficulty in bruising the ‘id’ so that the ferment of getting to grips with one’s blaming others for what cannot get to grips with in oneself. The log in one’s own eye…..if you remember the Christian Book?
In pleasant ICT terminology, you are in ‘a loop’. In a personal bruto-description of my Immortal Reality Making…..
Your head is up your rectal orifice.
Does that answer your request for being a holder of the flame of truth. and by the way I was already doing what you wanted me to do
Engage brain before hitting keyboard
Don’t, woman, wear the petty cloak of masculine bad ideas for bullying people out of there basic ‘Vita Brevis de Veritas’.
96. Elena - April 10, 2010
We Were There, your name says it clearly, we were there! That issue.
Not finding mechanisms that would lead us to a clear action to stop the Fellowship from hurting more people was very frustrating. I do wonder why others sit and watch people sacrifice themselves and don’t try to understand what happens but try to stop those who do. We are each marked in our lives in such a way that our compromise cannot avoid some issues and on the contrary, find in them a road to our self.
Nigel, deep thanks. We flower more fully each day. Keep trusting yourself no matter what anyone says.
97. ton - April 11, 2010
look elena, it may seem that i’m picking on you but i’m going to continue to respond because, although the same old familiar patterns are emerging (why do you suppose that is?), nevertheless i hold out some hope for you.
this IS a “conversation” elena, even though it is not to your liking… when the “conversation” here is not to your liking, that is, when your sense of authority is questioned or challenged, you become defensive and accusatory which prevents you from “hearing” what is being “said” — so we end up going ’round and ’round and ’round… but i’ll keep at it for a while.
you say i “treat your perception as if etc…” but i NEVER treated your perception as if it were “a finished theory,” that’s just plainly absurd when quite the opposite is true. you say that you “would like to present ideas so they can be looked at… etc.” well, you have done so, and i have responded to your ideas… and i never said the ideas you’re so “identified” with “are not good enough” — what i did was to offer sources for some alternative perspectives…. and yes i have looked at your precious ideas “in detail” and i have considered them “seriously” — seriously enough to respond, but you don’t like the responses you’re getting and that’s ok with me because i’m not here to please you.
as for my understanding of what i read, you have no idea, but here’s another clue that will help you more than trying to know what i understand: you would do well to be more concerned about YOUR OWN understanding, or rather the lack thereof. what you should understant is that i’m not here to spoon feed you, i’ve tried to encourage you to grow up and do your own homework… but that annoys you, so you lash out. maybe it comes from walking so long in lock-step with your fellow cultists, but i really think that what you want is nothing more than someone who will agree with you, someone who will support your fragile, inflated ego. as long as the other person agrees with you or doesn’t challenge you, then everything is love and kisses, but when your sense of authority is called into question, the daggers come out… this little spat with nigel is the latest case in point.
i’m NOT here to massage your ego elena… why do you think i posted that link on “ego-death” ? that was intended for you my dear, did you study the topic in any depth, or did you simply ignore it? elena, here’s a bit of tough love for you — your problem is that you’re on a major ego-trip… it’s past time to get over yourself, but it’s not too late.
98. nige - April 11, 2010
Now elena robust happiness on the blog has been at this juncture achieved i have a dream that requires your financial commitment and my commitment to your enlightment because of your 9th lifetime role. The bishop blaize pub on exeter quayside has an example of our ‘city of robust love’ walt whitman, the complete poems penguin edition page 164 . gay pride had a massive coming out of the woodwork this friday gone and i flirted with the radical babes in the pub – you don’t need to have sex in bed to really have sex in its full, nourishing capacity – i would be so happy to introduce you to my ‘nighest’ friends. The cutain of doubt will be lifted…..trust…..trust…..trust.
Chapman spent her youth moving frequently due to her father’s Air Force career. Teaching herself to play guitar on an instrument that was intended as a gift for her father, Chapman wrote her first song at age 11. While singing in clubs in… Read More
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Sand and Water Beth Nielsen Chapman Lyrics Ringtone
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I Keep Coming Back to You Beth Nielsen Chapman Lyrics Ringtone
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Life Holds On Beth Nielsen Chapman Lyrics Ringtone
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Walk My Way Beth Nielsen Chapman Lyrics Ringtone
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Years Beth Nielsen Chapman Lyrics Ringtone
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99. fofblogmoderator - April 11, 2010
Sorry, but I have no time for diplomacy. The Elena experiment is over. If people don’t like it, someone can volunteer to take over the blog.
100. nige - April 11, 2010
fofbm
And I am gritting my cross-bite malocclusion mouth on the end of the rope. Steve,,,,,my email address is nhprice@gmail.com if you can buzz me operating method/conduct/requirements. I have medium haul psychological patience.
“Leaders approach chaos and order with the authority of personal magnetism legitimized with a commitment to their own destiny”
Abraham Zoliznic – Business Magazine – June 1989
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