186. Daily Cardiac – November 13, 2009
ton – 171:
ton – 171:
“and he certainly doesn’t understand that the premises of his arguments are all based on BELIEF…”
All premises, understandings, observations, are based on belief. They can be based on beivefing what is true or believing what is not true, but it’s belief nonetheless.
“and his belief is based on his oh-so frail faith in a flim-flam man, a con-artist who runs just-another-phony-garden-variety little cult…”
The truth of that has not been determined here. This is your stated belief. I say stated because deep down you may not even believe it yourself.
But whatever it is it’s not of the garden variety, and you are well aware of that; so don’t be so disingenuous.
183
“dc 179 you didn’t answer my question… again. i’ll make is simpler, i won’t ask if your ‘teacher’ sucks your pee pee… i’ll simply ask if you imagine that you ‘love’ your ‘teacher?’ and the follow-up is, if so then how does that skew your perception and judgment? you think about it.”
I don’t imagine I love him, I do love him. He’s given me the ultimate gift, myself. It would be mindbogglingly callous of me not to love him.
As far as the second part of your question I’ll still answer it even thought the “imagine’ is not part of the equation and I’ll assume the answer still applies for you.
We’ve all been in friendships, relationships where we were infatuated, “in Love” with another. When in that state they can do no wrong. But perhaps something changes and they “do wrong’, to us no less. And so the “love” turns to its opposite, hate. All the while the other person exists for themselves, they do not change, they are who they are, only our perception of them changes. We “see” something we did not see before. But in either case we are working on incomplete, and skewered information.
When aligned with them we give give them too much praise and when we are against them we give them too much scorn. All the while they have an “objective” existence aside from our perceptions. They may have virtues the hater does not see and vices the lover does not see.
This is why schools are necessary, they release us from the illusions of the second state so we see things more for what they are and not what we project on the situation.
True Love, which I feel for RB, is only possible from a higher state. And hate is not possible from that same higher state.
What we often call love is more related to lust, which changes like the wind.
What we often call love is more related to lust, which changes like the wind.
Tatyana – 181:
“I came to the FoF because I was looking for the 4th Way school/group and FoF claimed to be the one and even had a direct lineage to Gurdgieff (which turned out to be a lie)”
A direct link with Gurdjieff is formed with whomever understands him the most, not with who has the closest physical proximity to him or his students.
“I was not looking for methods to help me to remember myself/be present more deeply because this is what I was told I should be doing while IN FoF.”
Well the whole point is to engage one’s higher Self, to remember the Self, be present to the Self. But that doesn’t happen just because you write out a check to the FoF, or because you are an “older student” or around older students. It only happens with the right efforts. Wrong efforts, no matter how sincere, are fruitless.
“Neither was I looking for verification of higher forces, because in the 4th way books there are no higher forces.”
I think you’re mistaken. I no longer own a copy of the Fourth Way but if my memory is correct Ouspensky says at the very beginning, maybe page 1, that the only reason those ideas have any value is because they do not come from man, but from higher mind.
No one can successfully do the work without verifying higher forces.
“But, instead of becoming more awake I was falling asleep under a hypnosis of RB and older students, and I was wasting my time believing that I was in a higher state.”
It’s not easy to do the work in the correct way, in fact it’s not easy to do anything in the correct way. If you look at the figures of those who apply for entrance into Harvard Business School with the figures of those who actually graduate and go on to become an executive in a corporation or form a corporation that is successful the figures will be less than 10%, or about the same as those who stay in the FoF.
By the way, I answered your first 3 questions because they seemd sincerely asked, then in your next post to me you started fantasizing. I hope you didn’t expect me to respond to your fanticies.
To no one in particular:
A few have been speculating that I come here for attention and some of the same ones have dedicated entire posts to musing about Daily Cardiac; whether he’s a he or a she, whether he’s had sex with the teacher or not. It’s interesting to observe that little phenomenon. But it does succeed in avoiding the issues before us.
silentpurr – 177:
I gave a lot of energy to your question when I responded in #80 – 85, and all you came back with was something about Jeffery Dalmer.
Could you elaborate on what he has to do with the matter at hand?
Could you elaborate on what he has to do with the matter at hand?
By the way, in case you didn’t know, a romantic is a person having no basis in fact.
168. JustDiscussing – November 12, 2009
“Dear Daily Cardiac,
I’d like to comment on two of the more substantial points that you make in your messages.
1. The sex. Your counter examples of a CEO having sex with an employee and Ralph Fiennes having sex on an airplane with a hostess are hardly similar to what Robert is doing. In the Fiennes example, the hostess, Lisa Robertson claims to have initiated the sex herself. Just to be clear, we are talking about Robert having unprotected sex with (over the years) hundreds of heterosexual men, usually married or in a relationship.”
The Ralph Fiennes example is appropriate, especially since the flight attendant, as you say, initiated the sex. The point is that she seized the moment. If any other passenger would have approached her for sex in the lavatory she would have refused. Why was Ralph any different? Because he had something she wanted, power in the form of celebrity, status.
Robert also has status and celebrity and many students want a part of that. That’s not the whole story though. I’m sure he has many loving relationships where the love is reciprocal. If there are those who consent to sex and then regret it that’s not so unusual. Many people regret many of their actions in life. Maybe the actions were not appropriate, maybe the actions did turn out like they expected, The reasons for regret are numerous. But consent is consent, the onus is on the one who consents.
“Sex with at least one underage partner.”
I’m glad you brought it up. What happened in that case? The person who initiated the suit settled out of court. What did he settle for? Money. He could have decided the justice of a trial was more important than the money, you know, the principle of the matter.
In Robert’s case paying the money made sense. Defending himself could have cost much more than he paid. In any event Tr_y and his attorney probably felt he did not have a strong enough case to take to trial or else they would taken it to the hilt and had the trial and got the attorney fees plus the damages.
And by the way, any one can sue anyone else for anything these days. Suing is not tantamount to having a legitimate cause. Recently someone (a judge no less) sued a dry cleaning establishment for $5,000,000 dollars for losing a pair trousers. The suit was eventually thrown out but the owners of the dry cleaning firm went out of business in the process of paying lawyer’s bills.
For the record Tr_y was 17 + years old, an emancipated person supporting himself full time, 6′ 2″ and very athletic looking; certainly someone who could have been thought to be over 18, the age individuals need to be in order to join the FoF. Tr_y had a waiver to join through parental consent.
167. Jomo Piñata:
“Lacuna Piñata never heard of a “Conscious School” before meeting the Fellowship. “Conscious School” is Fellowship jargon. The jargon itself has shaped his memory because he has learned to characterize his life to fit the jargon.”
I first encountered the term Esoteric School from Ouspensky, which sparked the search that culminated by joining the FoF. Consciousness is implied in the term Esoteric School.
“In theory, you can always get what you want if you can confine what you want to what you get. In practice, I don’t know of any human being who can do that, and if I did I would regard them as lobotomized. But I’ve known a lot of human beings who grew their way out of the conundrum I just described. I wish that for you, too, Lacuna Piñata.”
In practice no one gets what they want if it’s not granted by higher forces. Everything is controlled by the spirit world. There are a lot of things you want and don’t get. The same for me and for everyone.
I want what they want and the things I try to get and do get I know it’s through divine consent. The things I try to get but can’t I assume it’s not in the cards, and if it were I’d get them without trying.
I stopped kicking in doors a log time ago.
179. Daily Cardiac – November 12, 2009
158. James Mclemore –
158. James Mclemore –
“DC said,
“This discussion is supposed to be about spiritual matters;”
He is mistaken. Actually he knows better, and he only wishes it was about that. He wishes it was about almost anything other than what it really is, and then tries his best to develop conversation about other topics. This blog is about the Fellowship of Friends that presents itself as spirituality but is actually a cult full of deception and fraud. This blog is about the abuse of power.
This blog is a lot simpler than he wishes it was.”
I did indeed say the blog is “supposed” to be about spiritual matters. James says I am mistaken so I presume he means it’s not supposed to be about spiritual matters.
Well he’s right in that so far it has not been about spiritual matters. In fact practically all that is discussed is sex or money; hardly spiritual subjects. Do a word search and see how many times the words sex or money come up vs awakening.(and I’m probably responsible for most of those hits)
Unwittingly James makes my point better than I could in his statements of #158.
The FoF defines itself as a spiritual school of awakening and the critics and opponents here say it’s not a spiritual school but no more than a scam and fraudulent organization.
So in fact they (ex members) must apply spiritual truths and conditions to their evaluations of the FoF, if those evaluations are to be considered valid. How then can the blog be about anything but spiritual matters? James and I seem to agree on one point and that is the blog, up to the present time, has not been about spiritual matters, but about very earthly matters.
If a food expert is evaluating a restaurant’s performance in the area of quality of the dishes on the menu doesn’t the conversation have to focus on ” food matters” ?
JM – “This blog is a lot simpler than he wishes it was”
I don’t know about the blog being simple but the real issues at hand are indeed simple they just have not yet been explored in their entirety.
I know most contributors to this blog will not follow along with this reasoning but if you deem a spiritual organization to be false you need to prove it false by spiritual standards.
As I’ve said several times, in particular to Tatyana up a little on this page, teacher sex with students, even kinky sex, does not disqualify the FoF from being exactly what it claims to be.
If someone were to say – “I came to the FoF because I wanted to see myself better, to acquire the tools and methods to help me remember myself / be present more deeply, more frequently, and it has not delivered on it’s part of the bargain while I feel I have lived up to my part.” Or “I came to verify higher forces and learn more about this area, how they work with us/communicate with us, but it was never discussed.”
Then we would have the basis for a discussion on whether the FoF was deficient or lacking in its duties as a school. That would be the basis for a spiritual discussion.
234. Elena - November 13, 2009 [Edit]Last two posts were taken from page 85 of the fofblog.
So Daily Cardiac, you want the subject to remain in the sphere of spirituality so that the facts are not confronted?
Some questions that come up:
How can an individual develop consciousness if he/she can never, ever, within the Fellowship, exercise his or her own will?
Why did Pathway to Presence, fof, separate itself from life when this is the main condition of a Fourth Way School?
Why are members induced to separate from family, life and friends instead of not being identified with them and practicing the non-expression of negative emotions, inner considering, lying, not being in imagination, and transform their experiences within their own life instead of having to severe themselves from it?
Does severing yourself from life (family, friends, humanity at large,) allow you to practice a Fourth Way System?
If you’re not practicing a Fourth Way System, what System are you practicing?
We know Robert Burton has seriously deviated from the Fourth Way System, which is explicitly presented to develop IN life, what System is Robert working with? Could you give an outline of the System he is now working with?
In the Fourth Way System, Influence C is understood as Conscious Influence, Influence B, as a mixture of C and A and Influence A as influences coming directly from life without connection to higher influence.
Why did Influence A become evil and Influence C separate from it in the Fellowship?
It also states that a human being is composed of seven centers: intellectual, emotional, moving, instinctive, sexual and two higher centers that in normal human beings who have not worked on themselves and remain in essence or develop false personality, have not become active.
Why were the centers divided into good and evil? There is no evil in identifications, the problem rises when they become pathological and we hurt our selves or others which is what you’re doing in the Fellowship by preventing people from work on them selves and their lives. One cannot deal with one’s life if one throws it out the window! You put a stop on their processes and froze them then replaced it for a dogma and a lifestyle that is nothing but Robert’s homosexuality.
You destroyed your lives and then made it a job to destroy other people’s to justify your selves. It’s possible to free one’s self not only from the Fellowship but from one’s unnecessary and real suffering. Why have you taken the option to not face your suffering?
In our suffering lies the suffering of all of mankind. When we avoid it, we perpetuate it. Facing it and resolving it frees not only our self but also whole generations. You are people running away from your lives but they will meet you in the end and present you with the same bill with which you joined the Fellowship and by then you’ll realize that you no longer have time to live it and resolve the difficulties that you came with and were meant to work with.
It is true that we are all people who have been hurt and I did not help much insulting you but I too was hurt by you when I was screaming.
We are so much more disfigured after a cult that we cannot reconstruct our selves without resolving the issues. We can remain in a cult, which is like limbo where nothing evolves or we can try to live a life. Earth can be both heaven and hell for different men at the same time. Cults are worse than hell because they are hell made up. They are made up of the unnecessary suffering that comes from people that are not willing to face their real suffering. There is nothing criminal about real suffering but there is extreme criminality in unnecessary suffering. Organizing your selves to provide Robert with young men creates tremendous real suffering from Robert’s inability to work with his own suffering and yours to deal with your own. A cult is shrine to identification with the guru. Girard justifies Robert’s behavior because he has also proved incapable of dealing with his own sexual shortcomings. There is nothing evil about being gay or watching pornography, it is the human condition of many a man, but there’s great evil in institutionalizing gayness and pornography as not only ideal but divine activities of a Conscious School from which many a person in essence is drinking from. In the Fellowship cult, men are conditioned to behave like sissies on a big scale; they are “disfigured” psychologically, there is something very spiritual about that but nothing spiritually positive about that. Women are made moneymakers for their unconscious male authority figure. There is nothing wrong in the suffering people entered the Fellowship with but something terribly wrong in how that suffering became the device to enslave them more deeply without being able to transform and understand their parents and the society that surrounded them.
Homosexuality is not a crime but institutionalizing it for all men is a crime and men who are not willing to have sex with Robert are alienated from the life of the Fellowship. There is a community going on in the Fellowship Cult all the time and that community is subject to specific conditioning with very precise physical and psychological constraints to justify Robert Burton’s sexuality.
Were Robert a free man he would not try to justify his sexuality by imposing it on all his faithful and trustful followers. Were Girard a free man, he would not try to justify Robert’s excesses as aspects of divinity in freedom. Both these men are sick and everyone inside is being subjected to their sickness. Freeing your selves from your own conditioning is not about dealing with Robert or Girard’s sexuality. Sexuality obeys US. It corresponds to who we are. It frees us or enslaves us more deeply in our suffering and identifications. There is nothing wrong with being lesbian or gay but pretending that that is a divine path for each member to follow is criminal. There is nothing evil about watching pornography but it is an illness in which natural sexuality with another human being cannot develop. WATCHING pornography is an aspect of imagination based on fixations, identifications or complexes that were not resolved at the right time and still, while sexual tendencies might be harmful to an individual and even individually criminal they are not socially criminal until they involve other people and what you pretend to justify Daily Cardiac, is that the practices of the Fellowship are not criminal. The whole cult is in deep imagination which is another major obstacle to work on one’s self. It is lying and identification and negative all throughout. Each member of the Fellowship of Friends is participating in the sexual abuses committed by Robert by supporting his image as a Divine being and paying to be in the cult even in a far away center, or by actively participating in recruiting the boys. THAT is criminal and there is serious spirituality involved in it: one that compromises people’s essence in ways that can harm them beyond repair.
You are all people that need help. We all need help in or outside cults because our societies are seriously fractured and our families have fallen apart. It is not surprising that anyone of us has serious issues of imbalance but that hasn’t made most of us criminals and there is no reason for anyone of you to continue acting criminally. Evil does enter crime and it is marked by the inverted process in which an element takes over and systematically destroys the cosmos, be it a human being, a community or a nation. It is a cancerigenous process in no matter what sphere. The Fellowship cult is living that process and members like you are actively promoting for the cancer to grow stronger. You do not own your self. You don’t even own a name that you can stand by. You are not even free enough to represent your cult with the dignity of your own name. You come to a blog with a fake name and pretend to stand like a hero where there is nothing but a charlatan who is too afraid to say who he is. You have repeatedly avoided a hundred questions I’ve posed you and are firm on simply avoiding other people’s truth and suffering. The fact that you’ve become numb to people’s suffering is not an indication of your divine spirituality but an indication of the pathological condition that you are in. You are people who need help and we are here to help. We want to help. We can help. Are you still able to accept help?
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