301. Elena - November 27, 2009 [Edit]Wow! Who do you think would say a word on my behalf? A clear serious one just as I was getting ready to leave? I do thank you Daily Cardiac and yet we are far from agreeing on most things but beyond that there is a dialogue and you are a tremendous warrior even if on the other side! I’ll take your post bone by bone as I like to do!
88. Daily Cardiac –
Ames Gilbert – 49:
“Daily Cardiac, You are setting up a false argument when you ask readers to compare the collected comments of your detractors you’ve collected together to the blandishments of the FoF website. First, I don’t recall any of those who made comments setting themselves up as objective spiritual authorities or even ‘bearers of spiritual truth’; the FoF/PTP and Burton (and you yourself) clearly do.”
Ames Gilbert – 49:
“Daily Cardiac, You are setting up a false argument when you ask readers to compare the collected comments of your detractors you’ve collected together to the blandishments of the FoF website. First, I don’t recall any of those who made comments setting themselves up as objective spiritual authorities or even ‘bearers of spiritual truth’; the FoF/PTP and Burton (and you yourself) clearly do.”
I disagree that my comments represent a “false argument.” But to address you first point about ex members “setting themselves up as objective spiritual authorities” if you read the comments I posted you will arrive at the conclusion that those individuals think they know much more than I’ve ever claimed to know. They think they know their own reality entirely plus my reality better than I know it. That’s thinking they know a lot. In fact their words suggest that they are “all-knowing.”
Elena: I agree with them: almost everyone knows one’s reality better than one’s self specially in what concerns one’s weaknesses because we are experts at seeing each other’s weaknesses and beginners at seeing each others strengths otherwise armored personality wouldn’t feel comfortable with itself.————
I start out by giving everyone the benefit of the doubt that on some level they are here precisely because they are seeking spiritual truth; that’s what they were looking for when they joined the FoF I presume, and since that didn’t work out for them I also presume they are still on the journey to find it. I start with that premise and try to move from there to a place that reveals those who are actually seeking spiritual truth from those who are engaging in something less than a sincere search. One of the reasons I highlighted those complete postings was because, collectively, they expose in crystal clear terms the degree of evasiveness at work on this blog when people are asked to back up their opinions with reason.
Elena: I also agree with them that you do wish to place things in a place of doubt to undermine people’s presence and trust in their own presence. If you can get everyone to doubt as you do inside the Cult, you are in a stronger position and they in a weaker one. Some things are evaded on the FOFblog probably because the answers are not known and you use that deep lack of knowledge to create doubt but you yourself can’t offer the knowledge you’re asking for. You hint at it with words like the universal code but you also cannot make that practical and on the other hand, the very practical realities remain unrecognized by you. ——–
In any event ex members are using words to define who they are, to represent their position, so I am only contrasting those words with the words of the official FoF site. What could be more fair than that?The words I quoted are the ones ex members chose to go on record with in response to my comments. They could have said many things but they chose to say what they did. They could have chosen to actually address an issue I introduced, explain a contradiction I pointed out, but they preferred to answer in the manner they did. What could be more fair than to contrast that with what the FoF has chosen to present?
“Sure, some of the comments you have collected are reactive and probably don’t advance the conversation very much, but IMO you don’t contribute much yourself, whatever your claims to the contrary.”
I’m glad you qualified this statement by saying this is your opinion. It’s my opinion that I am one of the only voices who repeatedly has tried to elevate the comments to the level of a basic discussion and you can see by the quotes how futile that attempt has been.
Ah my dear Daily Cardiac, so easy to look at the beam in other’s eyes and miss the splinter in our own! How many questions did I ask you that you never answered? How long have you been here letting out your dogma without being able to connect to yourself? But you are beginning to be able to do that and that alone is healing. Just the activity of talking and sharing with others is healing no matter how much we disagree because if we are able to talk it means we are civilized enough to share and communicate and THAT is what matters. We can tolerate a great deal of disagreement and still dialogue but what we cannot tolerate is a great deal of abuse and that is what we’re actually about: the tremendous abuse of people by the Fellowship of Friends Cult.———
Ah my dear Daily Cardiac, so easy to look at the beam in other’s eyes and miss the splinter in our own! How many questions did I ask you that you never answered? How long have you been here letting out your dogma without being able to connect to yourself? But you are beginning to be able to do that and that alone is healing. Just the activity of talking and sharing with others is healing no matter how much we disagree because if we are able to talk it means we are civilized enough to share and communicate and THAT is what matters. We can tolerate a great deal of disagreement and still dialogue but what we cannot tolerate is a great deal of abuse and that is what we’re actually about: the tremendous abuse of people by the Fellowship of Friends Cult.———
“You mention the reference to the PTP site being “alluring”, and claim that any open seeker will find it irresistible. You forget that Silentpurr, like the rest of us who have left, was allured by the claims of the Fellowship of Friends, and after spending considerable time, effort, and money, found no substance behind the allure. There was a lure, but we found it was ‘bait and switch’.”
You / Silentpurr have found this to be the case, but others, hundreds of others, have found the opposite to be the case; that there is much substance behind the allure. Now, having said that, if you can see what I’m getting at then we would be standing on the threshold of a real discussion, if you are interested in that. I see many flaws, gaps and contradictions in the conclusions you arrive at regarding the FoF/RB.
You / Silentpurr have found this to be the case, but others, hundreds of others, have found the opposite to be the case; that there is much substance behind the allure. Now, having said that, if you can see what I’m getting at then we would be standing on the threshold of a real discussion, if you are interested in that. I see many flaws, gaps and contradictions in the conclusions you arrive at regarding the FoF/RB.
Elena: The thousand members still in the Fellowship today simply shows the power of a cult over its members and that alone should help us scream and run to get them out. People give up themselves to belong to a community because belonging to each other is such a wonderful thing but if to belong to each other we have to give our selves up it is better to continue on one’s own and hold everyone within one’s soul. A community without free participation is not a community but a cult. A cult in which only the guru counts is a tyranny. A tyranny is crime and crime is what you’re defending.———-
A discussion ensues when someone representing one position acknowledges the position of another, however much that position opposes his or her own views and yields to that person so their position can be expounded on. Then vice versa. Then the results of the chronicling of thoughts, reasonings, logic, of both sides, are there for posterity, for anyone to absorb and judge the merit of or lack of merit of. The quotes I posted from ex members represent all that a true discussion does not consist of.
Elena: I don’t agree. Swearing and screaming reveals the state of the participants. Many might not be able to formulate the intellectual discourse that justifies their horror so they scream: “eat shit and die” but that is as valid and terrible as the fact that you formulate a lot of dogma without the balls to scream. The balls count my love! And it’s got to hurt in the balls to be credible. I do believe your balls are engaged in the problem but you’ve put your balls in your head and are defending rape! It makes a substantial difference don’t you think? At least the others are still trying to heal them after lending them to Bobby’s soulless hand.———-
Now, I ask you why is it that the very topics ex members offer as proof of FoF fraud and the like are not actually ever discussed using any semblance of reason? All ex members do is simply assert that something is true or correct because they say so and then when someone like myself challenges the assertions by pointing out pertinent exceptions or contradictions or lack of sound reasoning they can only write back with insults or more of the same assertions, never actually entering into a valid discussion of the issue. You wrote back on a variety of subjects but you did not touch any of the central issues I pointed out in the last posting and you probably are not aware of it.
Elena: You are very good Daily Cardiac, that is, you’ve got a lot of structure and knowledge of the different levels but for all the knowledge you’ve got, you’re as blind as the rest of us might be ignorant. We might not have as solid a structure as you have but we have the soul, our essence is still alive enough to know what is wrong. You’ve used the work to turn it against your self and others. You are extremely knowledgeable but use it to justify Robert’s darkness and with it try to get away with your own. You want answers on sexuality and there are answers. We’ll get to work on that soon enough.——–
Here is one central issue I introduced: It seems to me that a critique of any organization claiming to be a spiritual entity cannot be valid if the critics do not believe in a deity, or do not make mention of or account for a sprit world composed of higher beings who govern mankind and monitor our every movement. How would such a critique be valid without making mention of the existence of such a deity? The critique would be entirely out of context and thereby wholly off the mark. This fact deserves your attention.
Elena: Again your affirmation of higher beings governing mankind that I dealt with in the previous post. Your hierarchical conception of the world is necessary for you to justify your own power over members. You identify with the Gods above and in convincing yourself that you are acting them out, you justify your abuses on members but taking that position you separate mankind instead of creating unity and consciousness. Consciousness is the knowledge of our connectedness and conscious acting is strengthening those connections with love. The Fellowship Cult is ALL about disconnecting from one’s self, one’s family, humanity at large and each other, in short, the Fellowship is directly opposed to consciousness.——-
Elena: Again your affirmation of higher beings governing mankind that I dealt with in the previous post. Your hierarchical conception of the world is necessary for you to justify your own power over members. You identify with the Gods above and in convincing yourself that you are acting them out, you justify your abuses on members but taking that position you separate mankind instead of creating unity and consciousness. Consciousness is the knowledge of our connectedness and conscious acting is strengthening those connections with love. The Fellowship Cult is ALL about disconnecting from one’s self, one’s family, humanity at large and each other, in short, the Fellowship is directly opposed to consciousness.——-
“The bait was the Fourth Way, and we were switched to the Second Way, a religion based on the worship of Burton and his collection of conveniently invisible helpers, the theoretical 44 astral bodies of supposedly ‘conscious’ beings.”
First of all, Spirits are invisible; that’s not a “convenience” contrived by anyone connected to the FoF. This statement also shows some of the misconceptions ex members have who without any self questioning posit them into the column of Truth. There was no bait and switch. The FoF was founded upon principles, practices, collated by G & O, who called their collective system “The Fourth Way.”
First of all, Spirits are invisible; that’s not a “convenience” contrived by anyone connected to the FoF. This statement also shows some of the misconceptions ex members have who without any self questioning posit them into the column of Truth. There was no bait and switch. The FoF was founded upon principles, practices, collated by G & O, who called their collective system “The Fourth Way.”
Elena: Now you’re talking but I wonder if you’re listening. You seem unable to hear. Interesting that you use the word “Spirits” is it not? It is not a word in the System. In the System we talk about hydrogens 48, 24, 12, 6 and three and one. We can begin talking about the spiritual in the form of essence as of world 24 and 12, 6, 3 and 1 are already deeply and overtly connected to another realm that we could call SPIRITUAL if you wish. But that spiritual in out Fourth Way System IS INSIDE OF US, NOT OUTSIDE OF US, GOVERNING US. There is a permanent flow between the spiritual and the physical conditioned by the state of the I. Each individual’s I lives within the flow of communication between the realms. The more consciousness there is of the different realms within one, the more connected we are to the invisible realms and to the physical realm as an expression of it. There IS no separation in consciousness. The “deity” or demon today is not Robert Burton or any particular person, it is the I within each human being that has the power to unite or separate.
Forces coming from other realms as you suggest are not GOVERNING US, they are influencing us as much as we influence them in a mutual flow. Mankind lives in a dialogue with the cosmos not as its slave but as its friend and so does each individual. The Cosmos is not our enemy. Beings are trying to help us from all corners of the Universe, not dominate us. The determinism of planetary forces is only a structure on which to travel one’s journey through life not only until we develop our own moon but until we develop our own Sun. If you know the System, you’d understand what I am saying.———-
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