132. ton - March 6, 2011
elena; “It has been in the soul of all nations Ton, why is it that you cannot perceive it?”
it is you who say that i can’t or don’t “perceive it” — that is simply again your own perception and projection of your idea onto me (the other). psychological projection is defense mechanism — a person unconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to other people. projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others have those feelings. projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them. an example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. the mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and by redirecting satisfaction by attaching, or “projecting,” those same faults onto another person or object.
you see elena both are true… one must acknowledge BOTH the individual AND the collective…. what you fail to do here is to recognize context…. it’s the context of your one-sided myopic refrain which glorifies the collective that i object to…. and that context here on your blog is YOU… everything here filters through your own subjective individual perception elena… just because you are ‘saying it aloud’ here, that does not make it objective elena — this seems to be what you fail to realize. what is behind this mindset of yours ? it does smack of a totalitarian, fascistic, cultic mindset. the source of the mantra you continually chant here is what i object to — that source here is YOU and your own subjectivity which hides beneath and behind the collective “we” in order to masquerade as a type of imagined objectivity. you cannot pretend to speak for me or anyone else, much less the mass of humanity while you are failing to recognize the individual and that includes your self elena, the subject is you which you continually deny. you certainly cannot pretend to speak for me when you don’t even acknowledge and recognize me as an individual…. this is how deep your denial is.
elena: “The thousands of patients that Jung worked with and the millions that still need to be treated today are precisely the generations of human beings that have lost contact with the archetypes within themselves and in that loss, lost the meaning of life: death.”
this is very pretentious elena — you read a couple of lines from jung and all of a sudden you imagine yourself an expert… and what is worse you use this tidbit as another way of denying your own situation elena, you act as if you are above it all, above the poor and huddled masses you pretend to speak for, you imagine that you are not one of “the millions that still need to be treated today” — the point is elena, what can you do for yourself in this context ? eating your imaginary pie in the sky changes nothing.
elena: “thank you for this post Ton. Here you seem to understand much better than previously what this blog is about…. ”
and yet you still don’t understand.
elena: “…and prove more clearly than ever that if you actually wanted to add to the subject instead of detracting from it you could have done so all along…”
this is simply more denial and the typical dismissive attitude that is your habit…. what you call “detracting” i see as a deeper examination of the source.
elena: “…I would appreciate it if you could share with us…”
who is “us” elena ? if you are referring to you and i, then i believe we both know what i’m talking about, god knows we’ve been over it ad nauseum. if by ‘us’ you are referring to your imaginary audience here, i would suggest you do a little more research into HPD
elena: “what it is exactly that you think you are helping me with Ton?”
it’s simple elena but obviously it’s not easy; i am trying to help you to see yourself… this is difficult for someone like yourself who is so armored with arrogance and egotism as you demonstrate here.
elena: “What is the disability you see and what are the methods that you are using to address it?”
interesting that you should use the word “disability” — your word not mine… but since you put it in those terms; it has to do with an inability to see yourself through the eyes of another… and a concomitant lack of empathy. in general there is a term you should be familiarize yourself with — psychological blind spots… we all have them elena, the problem is that we fail to recognize them as such because of “blindness” to these areas… ouspensky might have called it an aspect of “sleep.’
elena: “but your aim was not helping but hindering. Has that changed now?”
nothing has changed elena, i am still here offering my observations which you perceive as “hindering.” that is a matter of perception which you take to be somehow “absolutely objective” rather than recognizing it as your subjective reaction and response…. your arrogance and egocentric attitude keeps you from withdrawing this type of projection…. this is your mistake. when you say things like: “Pointing out your similarity to Robert and fascist behavior is a fact not an insult.” that is a subjectively filtered perception stated as if it were an absolute fact…. this is an example of how filters of experience create psychological blind spots which you are unable to see and therefore determined to deny.
elena: “I state that your aim is to not only discredit what I say but try to convince me that what I am working on is of no value…”
wrong elena, wrong again. i’ve said it before but i’ll say it again: what you are working on here is worthwhile to you and maybe to you alone… at least that’s a healthier and less inflated way to approach this project of yours. it is when you pompously pretend to speak for the rest of the human race or when in a seeming state of delusional grandeur you imagine an audience hanging on your every “published” word here — that’s where you go astray. i think this project IS worthwhile for you as a journaling exercise, i’ve said so before, even offering links for further research into this important type of therapy. but as usual you dismissed me and said you don’t have time to follow through — this is another form of denial elena…. i’ll offer you the chance again here elena: when you dismiss me and attempt to marginalize me, when you treat me this way you are (in your own words): “bringing a sense of worthlessness to myself and that THAT is a well known technique to disqualify people and get them to disqualify themselves.” but you know what elena, that doesn’t work on me, because i know where i stand and what i am about.
elena: “…you have made of your own self a person who can never address positively what you agree with.”
and YOU on the other hand, are a person who cannot possibly get enough praise… you are addicted to it, you are addicted to your ego… you need attention, that is clear, even if in a negative form… that is what you are asking for when you hurl your attempted insults and denigrations at another…. that’s what i reflect back to you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder
elena: “The post you responded to is about tough love, not only fascism. Why do you think that you tend to isolate things and never actually manage to address the whole? The whole of this blog, the whole of myself, the whole of your self and the whole of US with all the positive and negative aspects in the spectrum? I think nothing defines fascism as much as the inability to see the positive side of anything, affirm it and reaffirm it until it flourishes well…”
and isn’t it you elena who continues to deny everything i say here? in fact you treat me as if i were a non-entity or as a punching bag against which to hurl your own pain… and yet you fail to recognize that in yourself. i’ve said it over and over elena, my aim here is to reflect you back to you… so let’s make a deal, shall we? when you can stop attacking and insulting and negating me, then i will stop reflecting you back to you…. but as long as you feel the need to play this way, i will continue to reflect it back for you in the hope that one day you will see the source in yourself… this is about coming to terms with the shadow side, the negative parts of yourself which you project onto another because of the fear or inability to see that in yourself.
the whole is reflected in the parts elena, if you overlook the parts in favor of “the whole” you miss the point. and if my teasing out the details offends you so, then you might ask yourself why? i try here to comment based on my reactions to what i read, and i tend to ‘read between the lines’ which means i try to examine the filter through which things are being perceived and ‘said’ here by you…. that is you, you are the filter. i’ve always said that you are in fact the subject here elena, and although you seem on the one hand to resent the type of attention i give to you, on the other hand you resent the fact that i don’t attend to you in other ways…. i’m sure if i played the role of your little lap-poodle here you would have a much different attitude…. when someone disagrees with you, or takes a different tack on the meaning and goals of “blogging” itself, you resent it, you look at it as a betrayal and defiance of your imagined authority and control…. to the point of the threatening and actual excommunication of the other…. that’s me. this is my dear, a type of psychological fascism which you exemplify over and again here. you say: “It’s funny that you would post this and say that this blog is fascist.” no elena, wrong again, i didn’t say “this blog is fascist” — what i said was: ” you used the word “fascism” in your “send off” to me when in reality that term accurately describes aspects of your own mindset.” what i was referring to was that you obviously don’t know the meaning of that word which you are so fond of throwing about and especially in your attempts to use as another insult against the other (me). the point again elena, is that you can’t see fascism at work in your own psychology, it’s another blind spot which you project onto others. then, when it’s reflected back to you, you deny it exists as part of your own psyche… you obfuscate, you deflect, you deny… it’s all part of you elena, everything you say and filter here is part of you, and yes you are a part of the whole — that is why when i choose to focus on you it is a way of talking about the whole if only in part… why can’t you see that?
elena: “Thanks for bringing the definition of fascism, at least it is an attempt to look at what I am trying to explore here.”
when you say “at least it is an attempt…” well thanks for the credit elena… i could go on and on outlining your many backhanded insults and your agenda to marginalize anything i might say here but frankly it’s boring and you are boring elena, you’re a spoiled little girl who craves attention when in reality you desperately need to get grip on yourself by giving yourself the proper type of attention…. yes elena, whether you recognize it or not, yours is a desperate cry for help. i repeat, i’m happy to stop this game with you but as long as you are crying to me for help i will play… isn’t it you elena who continues to deny everything i say here? in fact you treat me as if i were a non-entity or at best as a punching bag against which to hurl your own pain… you fail to recognize that in yourself. i’ve said it over and over elena, my aim here is to reflect you back to you… so when you can stop attacking and insulting and negating me, when you are able to recognize that you are in fact attacking and attempting to insult me, when you are finally able to withdraw your projections and see them in yourself, then at that point i will understand that you no longer need me to reflect you back to yourself.
Reply
133. ton - March 6, 2011
elena: “I’ll skip your link for now, I’m too busy with my musings.”
when you are able to make time in your very busy schedule:
http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx17.htm
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/the-health-benefits-of-journaling/
Reply
134. Elena - March 6, 2011
I’m sorry Ton, there are more interesting things happening here than you and I but if that’s how you enjoy yourself, keep at it all you like.
I’m sincerely busy in understanding other people’s work and putting my own understanding in that context. If it is of no value for anyone but me let me have that joy, no one is pushing you to be here.
It’s sad that you cannot address the subject and give valuable insight through your own understanding but continue to limit yourself to the criticism, always the same. So be it.
I’ll open a page for your personal criticism of me and you can use it all you like for those interested in reading it.
Reply
135. ton - March 6, 2011
dismissed again…
thanks for the condescending consideration elena
Reply
136. Elena - March 6, 2011
http://bbattleswordd.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/tons-criticisms-of-elena/132. ton - March 6, 2011
elena; “It has been in the soul of all nations Ton, why is it that you cannot perceive it?”
it is you who say that i can’t or don’t “perceive it” — that is simply again your own perception and projection of your idea onto me (the other). psychological projection is defense mechanism — a person unconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to other people. projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others have those feelings. projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them. an example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. the mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and by redirecting satisfaction by attaching, or “projecting,” those same faults onto another person or object.
you see elena both are true… one must acknowledge BOTH the individual AND the collective…. what you fail to do here is to recognize context…. it’s the context of your one-sided myopic refrain which glorifies the collective that i object to…. and that context here on your blog is YOU… everything here filters through your own subjective individual perception elena… just because you are ‘saying it aloud’ here, that does not make it objective elena — this seems to be what you fail to realize. what is behind this mindset of yours ? it does smack of a totalitarian, fascistic, cultic mindset. the source of the mantra you continually chant here is what i object to — that source here is YOU and your own subjectivity which hides beneath and behind the collective “we” in order to masquerade as a type of imagined objectivity. you cannot pretend to speak for me or anyone else, much less the mass of humanity while you are failing to recognize the individual and that includes your self elena, the subject is you which you continually deny. you certainly cannot pretend to speak for me when you don’t even acknowledge and recognize me as an individual…. this is how deep your denial is.
elena: “The thousands of patients that Jung worked with and the millions that still need to be treated today are precisely the generations of human beings that have lost contact with the archetypes within themselves and in that loss, lost the meaning of life: death.”
this is very pretentious elena — you read a couple of lines from jung and all of a sudden you imagine yourself an expert… and what is worse you use this tidbit as another way of denying your own situation elena, you act as if you are above it all, above the poor and huddled masses you pretend to speak for, you imagine that you are not one of “the millions that still need to be treated today” — the point is elena, what can you do for yourself in this context ? eating your imaginary pie in the sky changes nothing.
elena: “thank you for this post Ton. Here you seem to understand much better than previously what this blog is about…. ”
and yet you still don’t understand.
elena: “…and prove more clearly than ever that if you actually wanted to add to the subject instead of detracting from it you could have done so all along…”
this is simply more denial and the typical dismissive attitude that is your habit…. what you call “detracting” i see as a deeper examination of the source.
elena: “…I would appreciate it if you could share with us…”
who is “us” elena ? if you are referring to you and i, then i believe we both know what i’m talking about, god knows we’ve been over it ad nauseum. if by ‘us’ you are referring to your imaginary audience here, i would suggest you do a little more research into HPD
elena: “what it is exactly that you think you are helping me with Ton?”
it’s simple elena but obviously it’s not easy; i am trying to help you to see yourself… this is difficult for someone like yourself who is so armored with arrogance and egotism as you demonstrate here.
elena: “What is the disability you see and what are the methods that you are using to address it?”
interesting that you should use the word “disability” — your word not mine… but since you put it in those terms; it has to do with an inability to see yourself through the eyes of another… and a concomitant lack of empathy. in general there is a term you should be familiarize yourself with — psychological blind spots… we all have them elena, the problem is that we fail to recognize them as such because of “blindness” to these areas… ouspensky might have called it an aspect of “sleep.’
elena: “but your aim was not helping but hindering. Has that changed now?”
nothing has changed elena, i am still here offering my observations which you perceive as “hindering.” that is a matter of perception which you take to be somehow “absolutely objective” rather than recognizing it as your subjective reaction and response…. your arrogance and egocentric attitude keeps you from withdrawing this type of projection…. this is your mistake. when you say things like: “Pointing out your similarity to Robert and fascist behavior is a fact not an insult.” that is a subjectively filtered perception stated as if it were an absolute fact…. this is an example of how filters of experience create psychological blind spots which you are unable to see and therefore determined to deny.
elena: “I state that your aim is to not only discredit what I say but try to convince me that what I am working on is of no value…”
wrong elena, wrong again. i’ve said it before but i’ll say it again: what you are working on here is worthwhile to you and maybe to you alone… at least that’s a healthier and less inflated way to approach this project of yours. it is when you pompously pretend to speak for the rest of the human race or when in a seeming state of delusional grandeur you imagine an audience hanging on your every “published” word here — that’s where you go astray. i think this project IS worthwhile for you as a journaling exercise, i’ve said so before, even offering links for further research into this important type of therapy. but as usual you dismissed me and said you don’t have time to follow through — this is another form of denial elena…. i’ll offer you the chance again here elena: when you dismiss me and attempt to marginalize me, when you treat me this way you are (in your own words): “bringing a sense of worthlessness to myself and that THAT is a well known technique to disqualify people and get them to disqualify themselves.” but you know what elena, that doesn’t work on me, because i know where i stand and what i am about.
elena: “…you have made of your own self a person who can never address positively what you agree with.”
and YOU on the other hand, are a person who cannot possibly get enough praise… you are addicted to it, you are addicted to your ego… you need attention, that is clear, even if in a negative form… that is what you are asking for when you hurl your attempted insults and denigrations at another…. that’s what i reflect back to you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder
elena: “The post you responded to is about tough love, not only fascism. Why do you think that you tend to isolate things and never actually manage to address the whole? The whole of this blog, the whole of myself, the whole of your self and the whole of US with all the positive and negative aspects in the spectrum? I think nothing defines fascism as much as the inability to see the positive side of anything, affirm it and reaffirm it until it flourishes well…”
and isn’t it you elena who continues to deny everything i say here? in fact you treat me as if i were a non-entity or as a punching bag against which to hurl your own pain… and yet you fail to recognize that in yourself. i’ve said it over and over elena, my aim here is to reflect you back to you… so let’s make a deal, shall we? when you can stop attacking and insulting and negating me, then i will stop reflecting you back to you…. but as long as you feel the need to play this way, i will continue to reflect it back for you in the hope that one day you will see the source in yourself… this is about coming to terms with the shadow side, the negative parts of yourself which you project onto another because of the fear or inability to see that in yourself.
the whole is reflected in the parts elena, if you overlook the parts in favor of “the whole” you miss the point. and if my teasing out the details offends you so, then you might ask yourself why? i try here to comment based on my reactions to what i read, and i tend to ‘read between the lines’ which means i try to examine the filter through which things are being perceived and ‘said’ here by you…. that is you, you are the filter. i’ve always said that you are in fact the subject here elena, and although you seem on the one hand to resent the type of attention i give to you, on the other hand you resent the fact that i don’t attend to you in other ways…. i’m sure if i played the role of your little lap-poodle here you would have a much different attitude…. when someone disagrees with you, or takes a different tack on the meaning and goals of “blogging” itself, you resent it, you look at it as a betrayal and defiance of your imagined authority and control…. to the point of the threatening and actual excommunication of the other…. that’s me. this is my dear, a type of psychological fascism which you exemplify over and again here. you say: “It’s funny that you would post this and say that this blog is fascist.” no elena, wrong again, i didn’t say “this blog is fascist” — what i said was: ” you used the word “fascism” in your “send off” to me when in reality that term accurately describes aspects of your own mindset.” what i was referring to was that you obviously don’t know the meaning of that word which you are so fond of throwing about and especially in your attempts to use as another insult against the other (me). the point again elena, is that you can’t see fascism at work in your own psychology, it’s another blind spot which you project onto others. then, when it’s reflected back to you, you deny it exists as part of your own psyche… you obfuscate, you deflect, you deny… it’s all part of you elena, everything you say and filter here is part of you, and yes you are a part of the whole — that is why when i choose to focus on you it is a way of talking about the whole if only in part… why can’t you see that?
elena: “Thanks for bringing the definition of fascism, at least it is an attempt to look at what I am trying to explore here.”
when you say “at least it is an attempt…” well thanks for the credit elena… i could go on and on outlining your many backhanded insults and your agenda to marginalize anything i might say here but frankly it’s boring and you are boring elena, you’re a spoiled little girl who craves attention when in reality you desperately need to get grip on yourself by giving yourself the proper type of attention…. yes elena, whether you recognize it or not, yours is a desperate cry for help. i repeat, i’m happy to stop this game with you but as long as you are crying to me for help i will play… isn’t it you elena who continues to deny everything i say here? in fact you treat me as if i were a non-entity or at best as a punching bag against which to hurl your own pain… you fail to recognize that in yourself. i’ve said it over and over elena, my aim here is to reflect you back to you… so when you can stop attacking and insulting and negating me, when you are able to recognize that you are in fact attacking and attempting to insult me, when you are finally able to withdraw your projections and see them in yourself, then at that point i will understand that you no longer need me to reflect you back to yourself.
Reply
133. ton - March 6, 2011
elena: “I’ll skip your link for now, I’m too busy with my musings.”
when you are able to make time in your very busy schedule:
http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx17.htm
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/the-health-benefits-of-journaling/
Reply
134. Elena - March 6, 2011
I’m sorry Ton, there are more interesting things happening here than you and I but if that’s how you enjoy yourself, keep at it all you like.
I’m sincerely busy in understanding other people’s work and putting my own understanding in that context. If it is of no value for anyone but me let me have that joy, no one is pushing you to be here.
It’s sad that you cannot address the subject and give valuable insight through your own understanding but continue to limit yourself to the criticism, always the same. So be it.
I’ll open a page for your personal criticism of me and you can use it all you like for those interested in reading it.
Reply
135. ton - March 6, 2011
dismissed again…
thanks for the condescending consideration elena
Reply
136. Elena - March 6, 2011
http://bbattleswordd.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/tons-criticisms-of-elena/
elena; “It has been in the soul of all nations Ton, why is it that you cannot perceive it?”
it is you who say that i can’t or don’t “perceive it” — that is simply again your own perception and projection of your idea onto me (the other). psychological projection is defense mechanism — a person unconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to other people. projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others have those feelings. projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them. an example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. the mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and by redirecting satisfaction by attaching, or “projecting,” those same faults onto another person or object.
you see elena both are true… one must acknowledge BOTH the individual AND the collective…. what you fail to do here is to recognize context…. it’s the context of your one-sided myopic refrain which glorifies the collective that i object to…. and that context here on your blog is YOU… everything here filters through your own subjective individual perception elena… just because you are ‘saying it aloud’ here, that does not make it objective elena — this seems to be what you fail to realize. what is behind this mindset of yours ? it does smack of a totalitarian, fascistic, cultic mindset. the source of the mantra you continually chant here is what i object to — that source here is YOU and your own subjectivity which hides beneath and behind the collective “we” in order to masquerade as a type of imagined objectivity. you cannot pretend to speak for me or anyone else, much less the mass of humanity while you are failing to recognize the individual and that includes your self elena, the subject is you which you continually deny. you certainly cannot pretend to speak for me when you don’t even acknowledge and recognize me as an individual…. this is how deep your denial is.
elena: “The thousands of patients that Jung worked with and the millions that still need to be treated today are precisely the generations of human beings that have lost contact with the archetypes within themselves and in that loss, lost the meaning of life: death.”
this is very pretentious elena — you read a couple of lines from jung and all of a sudden you imagine yourself an expert… and what is worse you use this tidbit as another way of denying your own situation elena, you act as if you are above it all, above the poor and huddled masses you pretend to speak for, you imagine that you are not one of “the millions that still need to be treated today” — the point is elena, what can you do for yourself in this context ? eating your imaginary pie in the sky changes nothing.
elena: “thank you for this post Ton. Here you seem to understand much better than previously what this blog is about…. ”
and yet you still don’t understand.
elena: “…and prove more clearly than ever that if you actually wanted to add to the subject instead of detracting from it you could have done so all along…”
this is simply more denial and the typical dismissive attitude that is your habit…. what you call “detracting” i see as a deeper examination of the source.
elena: “…I would appreciate it if you could share with us…”
who is “us” elena ? if you are referring to you and i, then i believe we both know what i’m talking about, god knows we’ve been over it ad nauseum. if by ‘us’ you are referring to your imaginary audience here, i would suggest you do a little more research into HPD
elena: “what it is exactly that you think you are helping me with Ton?”
it’s simple elena but obviously it’s not easy; i am trying to help you to see yourself… this is difficult for someone like yourself who is so armored with arrogance and egotism as you demonstrate here.
elena: “What is the disability you see and what are the methods that you are using to address it?”
interesting that you should use the word “disability” — your word not mine… but since you put it in those terms; it has to do with an inability to see yourself through the eyes of another… and a concomitant lack of empathy. in general there is a term you should be familiarize yourself with — psychological blind spots… we all have them elena, the problem is that we fail to recognize them as such because of “blindness” to these areas… ouspensky might have called it an aspect of “sleep.’
elena: “but your aim was not helping but hindering. Has that changed now?”
nothing has changed elena, i am still here offering my observations which you perceive as “hindering.” that is a matter of perception which you take to be somehow “absolutely objective” rather than recognizing it as your subjective reaction and response…. your arrogance and egocentric attitude keeps you from withdrawing this type of projection…. this is your mistake. when you say things like: “Pointing out your similarity to Robert and fascist behavior is a fact not an insult.” that is a subjectively filtered perception stated as if it were an absolute fact…. this is an example of how filters of experience create psychological blind spots which you are unable to see and therefore determined to deny.
elena: “I state that your aim is to not only discredit what I say but try to convince me that what I am working on is of no value…”
wrong elena, wrong again. i’ve said it before but i’ll say it again: what you are working on here is worthwhile to you and maybe to you alone… at least that’s a healthier and less inflated way to approach this project of yours. it is when you pompously pretend to speak for the rest of the human race or when in a seeming state of delusional grandeur you imagine an audience hanging on your every “published” word here — that’s where you go astray. i think this project IS worthwhile for you as a journaling exercise, i’ve said so before, even offering links for further research into this important type of therapy. but as usual you dismissed me and said you don’t have time to follow through — this is another form of denial elena…. i’ll offer you the chance again here elena: when you dismiss me and attempt to marginalize me, when you treat me this way you are (in your own words): “bringing a sense of worthlessness to myself and that THAT is a well known technique to disqualify people and get them to disqualify themselves.” but you know what elena, that doesn’t work on me, because i know where i stand and what i am about.
elena: “…you have made of your own self a person who can never address positively what you agree with.”
and YOU on the other hand, are a person who cannot possibly get enough praise… you are addicted to it, you are addicted to your ego… you need attention, that is clear, even if in a negative form… that is what you are asking for when you hurl your attempted insults and denigrations at another…. that’s what i reflect back to you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder
elena: “The post you responded to is about tough love, not only fascism. Why do you think that you tend to isolate things and never actually manage to address the whole? The whole of this blog, the whole of myself, the whole of your self and the whole of US with all the positive and negative aspects in the spectrum? I think nothing defines fascism as much as the inability to see the positive side of anything, affirm it and reaffirm it until it flourishes well…”
and isn’t it you elena who continues to deny everything i say here? in fact you treat me as if i were a non-entity or as a punching bag against which to hurl your own pain… and yet you fail to recognize that in yourself. i’ve said it over and over elena, my aim here is to reflect you back to you… so let’s make a deal, shall we? when you can stop attacking and insulting and negating me, then i will stop reflecting you back to you…. but as long as you feel the need to play this way, i will continue to reflect it back for you in the hope that one day you will see the source in yourself… this is about coming to terms with the shadow side, the negative parts of yourself which you project onto another because of the fear or inability to see that in yourself.
the whole is reflected in the parts elena, if you overlook the parts in favor of “the whole” you miss the point. and if my teasing out the details offends you so, then you might ask yourself why? i try here to comment based on my reactions to what i read, and i tend to ‘read between the lines’ which means i try to examine the filter through which things are being perceived and ‘said’ here by you…. that is you, you are the filter. i’ve always said that you are in fact the subject here elena, and although you seem on the one hand to resent the type of attention i give to you, on the other hand you resent the fact that i don’t attend to you in other ways…. i’m sure if i played the role of your little lap-poodle here you would have a much different attitude…. when someone disagrees with you, or takes a different tack on the meaning and goals of “blogging” itself, you resent it, you look at it as a betrayal and defiance of your imagined authority and control…. to the point of the threatening and actual excommunication of the other…. that’s me. this is my dear, a type of psychological fascism which you exemplify over and again here. you say: “It’s funny that you would post this and say that this blog is fascist.” no elena, wrong again, i didn’t say “this blog is fascist” — what i said was: ” you used the word “fascism” in your “send off” to me when in reality that term accurately describes aspects of your own mindset.” what i was referring to was that you obviously don’t know the meaning of that word which you are so fond of throwing about and especially in your attempts to use as another insult against the other (me). the point again elena, is that you can’t see fascism at work in your own psychology, it’s another blind spot which you project onto others. then, when it’s reflected back to you, you deny it exists as part of your own psyche… you obfuscate, you deflect, you deny… it’s all part of you elena, everything you say and filter here is part of you, and yes you are a part of the whole — that is why when i choose to focus on you it is a way of talking about the whole if only in part… why can’t you see that?
elena: “Thanks for bringing the definition of fascism, at least it is an attempt to look at what I am trying to explore here.”
when you say “at least it is an attempt…” well thanks for the credit elena… i could go on and on outlining your many backhanded insults and your agenda to marginalize anything i might say here but frankly it’s boring and you are boring elena, you’re a spoiled little girl who craves attention when in reality you desperately need to get grip on yourself by giving yourself the proper type of attention…. yes elena, whether you recognize it or not, yours is a desperate cry for help. i repeat, i’m happy to stop this game with you but as long as you are crying to me for help i will play… isn’t it you elena who continues to deny everything i say here? in fact you treat me as if i were a non-entity or at best as a punching bag against which to hurl your own pain… you fail to recognize that in yourself. i’ve said it over and over elena, my aim here is to reflect you back to you… so when you can stop attacking and insulting and negating me, when you are able to recognize that you are in fact attacking and attempting to insult me, when you are finally able to withdraw your projections and see them in yourself, then at that point i will understand that you no longer need me to reflect you back to yourself.
Reply
133. ton - March 6, 2011
elena: “I’ll skip your link for now, I’m too busy with my musings.”
when you are able to make time in your very busy schedule:
http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx17.htm
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/the-health-benefits-of-journaling/
Reply
134. Elena - March 6, 2011
I’m sorry Ton, there are more interesting things happening here than you and I but if that’s how you enjoy yourself, keep at it all you like.
I’m sincerely busy in understanding other people’s work and putting my own understanding in that context. If it is of no value for anyone but me let me have that joy, no one is pushing you to be here.
It’s sad that you cannot address the subject and give valuable insight through your own understanding but continue to limit yourself to the criticism, always the same. So be it.
I’ll open a page for your personal criticism of me and you can use it all you like for those interested in reading it.
Reply
135. ton - March 6, 2011
dismissed again…
thanks for the condescending consideration elena
Reply
136. Elena - March 6, 2011
http://bbattleswordd.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/tons-criticisms-of-elena/132. ton - March 6, 2011
elena; “It has been in the soul of all nations Ton, why is it that you cannot perceive it?”
it is you who say that i can’t or don’t “perceive it” — that is simply again your own perception and projection of your idea onto me (the other). psychological projection is defense mechanism — a person unconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to other people. projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others have those feelings. projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them. an example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. the mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and by redirecting satisfaction by attaching, or “projecting,” those same faults onto another person or object.
you see elena both are true… one must acknowledge BOTH the individual AND the collective…. what you fail to do here is to recognize context…. it’s the context of your one-sided myopic refrain which glorifies the collective that i object to…. and that context here on your blog is YOU… everything here filters through your own subjective individual perception elena… just because you are ‘saying it aloud’ here, that does not make it objective elena — this seems to be what you fail to realize. what is behind this mindset of yours ? it does smack of a totalitarian, fascistic, cultic mindset. the source of the mantra you continually chant here is what i object to — that source here is YOU and your own subjectivity which hides beneath and behind the collective “we” in order to masquerade as a type of imagined objectivity. you cannot pretend to speak for me or anyone else, much less the mass of humanity while you are failing to recognize the individual and that includes your self elena, the subject is you which you continually deny. you certainly cannot pretend to speak for me when you don’t even acknowledge and recognize me as an individual…. this is how deep your denial is.
elena: “The thousands of patients that Jung worked with and the millions that still need to be treated today are precisely the generations of human beings that have lost contact with the archetypes within themselves and in that loss, lost the meaning of life: death.”
this is very pretentious elena — you read a couple of lines from jung and all of a sudden you imagine yourself an expert… and what is worse you use this tidbit as another way of denying your own situation elena, you act as if you are above it all, above the poor and huddled masses you pretend to speak for, you imagine that you are not one of “the millions that still need to be treated today” — the point is elena, what can you do for yourself in this context ? eating your imaginary pie in the sky changes nothing.
elena: “thank you for this post Ton. Here you seem to understand much better than previously what this blog is about…. ”
and yet you still don’t understand.
elena: “…and prove more clearly than ever that if you actually wanted to add to the subject instead of detracting from it you could have done so all along…”
this is simply more denial and the typical dismissive attitude that is your habit…. what you call “detracting” i see as a deeper examination of the source.
elena: “…I would appreciate it if you could share with us…”
who is “us” elena ? if you are referring to you and i, then i believe we both know what i’m talking about, god knows we’ve been over it ad nauseum. if by ‘us’ you are referring to your imaginary audience here, i would suggest you do a little more research into HPD
elena: “what it is exactly that you think you are helping me with Ton?”
it’s simple elena but obviously it’s not easy; i am trying to help you to see yourself… this is difficult for someone like yourself who is so armored with arrogance and egotism as you demonstrate here.
elena: “What is the disability you see and what are the methods that you are using to address it?”
interesting that you should use the word “disability” — your word not mine… but since you put it in those terms; it has to do with an inability to see yourself through the eyes of another… and a concomitant lack of empathy. in general there is a term you should be familiarize yourself with — psychological blind spots… we all have them elena, the problem is that we fail to recognize them as such because of “blindness” to these areas… ouspensky might have called it an aspect of “sleep.’
elena: “but your aim was not helping but hindering. Has that changed now?”
nothing has changed elena, i am still here offering my observations which you perceive as “hindering.” that is a matter of perception which you take to be somehow “absolutely objective” rather than recognizing it as your subjective reaction and response…. your arrogance and egocentric attitude keeps you from withdrawing this type of projection…. this is your mistake. when you say things like: “Pointing out your similarity to Robert and fascist behavior is a fact not an insult.” that is a subjectively filtered perception stated as if it were an absolute fact…. this is an example of how filters of experience create psychological blind spots which you are unable to see and therefore determined to deny.
elena: “I state that your aim is to not only discredit what I say but try to convince me that what I am working on is of no value…”
wrong elena, wrong again. i’ve said it before but i’ll say it again: what you are working on here is worthwhile to you and maybe to you alone… at least that’s a healthier and less inflated way to approach this project of yours. it is when you pompously pretend to speak for the rest of the human race or when in a seeming state of delusional grandeur you imagine an audience hanging on your every “published” word here — that’s where you go astray. i think this project IS worthwhile for you as a journaling exercise, i’ve said so before, even offering links for further research into this important type of therapy. but as usual you dismissed me and said you don’t have time to follow through — this is another form of denial elena…. i’ll offer you the chance again here elena: when you dismiss me and attempt to marginalize me, when you treat me this way you are (in your own words): “bringing a sense of worthlessness to myself and that THAT is a well known technique to disqualify people and get them to disqualify themselves.” but you know what elena, that doesn’t work on me, because i know where i stand and what i am about.
elena: “…you have made of your own self a person who can never address positively what you agree with.”
and YOU on the other hand, are a person who cannot possibly get enough praise… you are addicted to it, you are addicted to your ego… you need attention, that is clear, even if in a negative form… that is what you are asking for when you hurl your attempted insults and denigrations at another…. that’s what i reflect back to you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder
elena: “The post you responded to is about tough love, not only fascism. Why do you think that you tend to isolate things and never actually manage to address the whole? The whole of this blog, the whole of myself, the whole of your self and the whole of US with all the positive and negative aspects in the spectrum? I think nothing defines fascism as much as the inability to see the positive side of anything, affirm it and reaffirm it until it flourishes well…”
and isn’t it you elena who continues to deny everything i say here? in fact you treat me as if i were a non-entity or as a punching bag against which to hurl your own pain… and yet you fail to recognize that in yourself. i’ve said it over and over elena, my aim here is to reflect you back to you… so let’s make a deal, shall we? when you can stop attacking and insulting and negating me, then i will stop reflecting you back to you…. but as long as you feel the need to play this way, i will continue to reflect it back for you in the hope that one day you will see the source in yourself… this is about coming to terms with the shadow side, the negative parts of yourself which you project onto another because of the fear or inability to see that in yourself.
the whole is reflected in the parts elena, if you overlook the parts in favor of “the whole” you miss the point. and if my teasing out the details offends you so, then you might ask yourself why? i try here to comment based on my reactions to what i read, and i tend to ‘read between the lines’ which means i try to examine the filter through which things are being perceived and ‘said’ here by you…. that is you, you are the filter. i’ve always said that you are in fact the subject here elena, and although you seem on the one hand to resent the type of attention i give to you, on the other hand you resent the fact that i don’t attend to you in other ways…. i’m sure if i played the role of your little lap-poodle here you would have a much different attitude…. when someone disagrees with you, or takes a different tack on the meaning and goals of “blogging” itself, you resent it, you look at it as a betrayal and defiance of your imagined authority and control…. to the point of the threatening and actual excommunication of the other…. that’s me. this is my dear, a type of psychological fascism which you exemplify over and again here. you say: “It’s funny that you would post this and say that this blog is fascist.” no elena, wrong again, i didn’t say “this blog is fascist” — what i said was: ” you used the word “fascism” in your “send off” to me when in reality that term accurately describes aspects of your own mindset.” what i was referring to was that you obviously don’t know the meaning of that word which you are so fond of throwing about and especially in your attempts to use as another insult against the other (me). the point again elena, is that you can’t see fascism at work in your own psychology, it’s another blind spot which you project onto others. then, when it’s reflected back to you, you deny it exists as part of your own psyche… you obfuscate, you deflect, you deny… it’s all part of you elena, everything you say and filter here is part of you, and yes you are a part of the whole — that is why when i choose to focus on you it is a way of talking about the whole if only in part… why can’t you see that?
elena: “Thanks for bringing the definition of fascism, at least it is an attempt to look at what I am trying to explore here.”
when you say “at least it is an attempt…” well thanks for the credit elena… i could go on and on outlining your many backhanded insults and your agenda to marginalize anything i might say here but frankly it’s boring and you are boring elena, you’re a spoiled little girl who craves attention when in reality you desperately need to get grip on yourself by giving yourself the proper type of attention…. yes elena, whether you recognize it or not, yours is a desperate cry for help. i repeat, i’m happy to stop this game with you but as long as you are crying to me for help i will play… isn’t it you elena who continues to deny everything i say here? in fact you treat me as if i were a non-entity or at best as a punching bag against which to hurl your own pain… you fail to recognize that in yourself. i’ve said it over and over elena, my aim here is to reflect you back to you… so when you can stop attacking and insulting and negating me, when you are able to recognize that you are in fact attacking and attempting to insult me, when you are finally able to withdraw your projections and see them in yourself, then at that point i will understand that you no longer need me to reflect you back to yourself.
Reply
133. ton - March 6, 2011
elena: “I’ll skip your link for now, I’m too busy with my musings.”
when you are able to make time in your very busy schedule:
http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx17.htm
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/the-health-benefits-of-journaling/
Reply
134. Elena - March 6, 2011
I’m sorry Ton, there are more interesting things happening here than you and I but if that’s how you enjoy yourself, keep at it all you like.
I’m sincerely busy in understanding other people’s work and putting my own understanding in that context. If it is of no value for anyone but me let me have that joy, no one is pushing you to be here.
It’s sad that you cannot address the subject and give valuable insight through your own understanding but continue to limit yourself to the criticism, always the same. So be it.
I’ll open a page for your personal criticism of me and you can use it all you like for those interested in reading it.
Reply
135. ton - March 6, 2011
dismissed again…
thanks for the condescending consideration elena
Reply
136. Elena - March 6, 2011
http://bbattleswordd.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/tons-criticisms-of-elena/
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