i think part of your problem with me is that i actually read you more ‘carefully’ than you like…. i look beneath the surface and in the process question some of your motives and that makes you uncomfortable. a problem with you elena is that you take yourself way too seriously, did you even stop for a moment to consider the difference between the ego/egoism and egotism… you have a very deeply held sense of self-importance… this condition also renders you hypersensitive to any point of view which diverges from your own and the most unfortunate condition which grows out of your exaggerated sense of self-importance is that you seem to be completely humorless.
several times you say that i called you names… i think you are imagining things again elena…. i did point out some of the things i find objectionable about your attitude….but there was no ‘name calling’ — other than ‘elena.’ i’ll say it again because you obviously ignored the point, what i find most objectionable are the various manifestations of your apparent superiority complex… did you even bother to read the wiki link on Adler ?
speaking of ‘empathy’ let’s just go through your last post so that you may see yourself through the eyes of another…. i’ll jot down here some of the ways you attempt to put another below you…. and i quote:
” you don’t care… you just enjoy putting me down with sarcasm.. that so called aggression that you call humor. So much lowlessness that you indulge in… only hurting your own self…. There is an essential respect that you cannot bring yourself to hold and that leaves very little room for a dialogue…. You are well treated here but you do not treat well…. It is plenty even though you look down on it. Were I to not consider you worth it you would be simply banned….”
(segregating me here in my own ‘cell’ IS a form of banishment elena, you don’t want to admit to it or banish me outright because it would be ‘politically incorrect’ and it would contradict what you’ve been saying. it would make you look like a hypocrite to banish me outright so you take the next best option and banish me to what you think of as the corner, the periphery, the margins. the main reason you keep me around here in isolation is for your own purposes, to you i’m merely a diversion from your ‘real work,’ i’m a plaything for you elena, and since i give you some attention you are willing to tolerate me… but barely).
to continue:
“since your valuation is nil why do you keep participating here? Why is it Ton that you cannot bring any beauty from within yourself and share it with the world but delight on putting everything I stand for down in every one of your posts? Why have you lost the capacity for empathy?”
yes elena, i could say the same of you… do you see all of the negativity in your writing/thinking? here’s some more:
“The fact that you find so horrifying that I say We are One and speak for you is just your identification.”
i wouldn’t describe it as ‘horrifying’ at all… and ‘identification’ with the idea is something you should look at in yourself.
“Do you have to call me names…?”
what ‘names’ elena?
“You have not understood a word I said… You haven’t wanted harmony in these two, four years, why would anyone wish that from you… all your complaints and attacks… a grumpy friend that repeats himself over and over again…. we’ve gotten used to his negative presence… I can barely tolerate that you exist but that is because you are unwilling to acknowledge every positive expression that I send out to you. You can neither take nor give positive things, forgive or apologize but with all your negativity you can’t get yourself to leave”
i hope you will look at this and see all of the negativity that YOU actually ‘send out.’
“…the lowlessness… You seem unable to move beyond US and yet hate the fact that We are One….”
no elena, i don’t hate anything, i’ll say it again, i object to the arrogance of anyone who thinks that she can speak for me and everyone else.
“…I am insulting or hurting you…”
yes you are and you know it, at least if you read between the lines you are admitting to it… and don’t deny it.
“…when I was as negative as you are…”
there you go again elena… so you are placing yourself in a superior position again. i’m not negative elena, what i’m doing with you is called ‘fighting fire with fire,’ i’m holding up the mirror so that you can see yourself… and i think on some level it’s working.
” It is fine if you do not agree and don’t wish to be part of that Oneness and in not being conscious of it…”
oh dear elena, i’m ‘not conscious’ eh– gee, where have i heard that before? now that i’m excluded from your exclusive club of ‘conscious’ enlightenment, the ‘we are one’ club… just pitiful.
“…justify all the separations you wish to have with people, but you don’t have to call me names because I am not interested in the lovelessness that you so enjoy.”
gee elena what names am i calling you? i know you prefer the amorphous perspective described by ‘we are one’ — your intransigent insistence sounds to me very much like a vestige of your long-time involvement in the brainwashing of the cult. in looking at things ‘objectively’ it is important to draw distinctions… you frame this approach negatively by saying that i’m justifying “separations with people” — what lovelessness are you so enjoying elena?
“My words are like mud in pigsty… ’ve failed to live up to it enough to continue failing because you so wish it.”
absolute baseless nonsense tinged with self-pity and an inversion of inflated self-importance.
“I am sorry for your world in which people allow to be treated less than a human being.”
what do you know about ‘my world’ elena? i will ask you to consider: how are you attempting to treat me here… always diminishing and marginalizing the other, does that make you feel better about yourself?
“You are a free man Ton, you can choose to be something else.”
gee elena, thanks for your permission… isn’t it you who continually accuses me of trying to make you into ‘something else’? you might want to look a little more deeply at this.
“In time we will realize that Democracy is the right of individuals to every right that was in its times, alloted to kings. The right to speak and decide, to be treated with decency, to serve and be served by people in a State of “love”, that is, to serve with one’s work for the development of ‘life’. To belong to the Kingdom of Human Beings without racial, national, social or academic separations. To love and be loved. To die at the service of the whole and to be honored in one’s death for one’s life and work was legitimately valued. To be graceful and grateful, to have the pride and the humility of being One with the Universe, One with every realm of Existence, One with every living and deceased soul. To treat with dignity and be treated with dignity for One is dignified and so are All others and so is Life itself. To walk the path of compassion, not in the sorrow of guilt but in the pride of being. To take responsability for one’s mistakes and sufferings and stand up again and again like a hero and face the struggle that is put at one’s feet and in one’s hands. Millions of people, millions and millions of people might take many generations to realize the consciousness of our humaneness but there is no other dignified path for the human being.”
grandiose blustering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiosity
Reply
11. Elena - March 30, 2011 [Edit]
Thank you Ton, at least in this post your sarcasm is much more under control. It is not that I am being negative for stating the facts, but that it is negative to practice them as consistently as you do.
We don’t agree and that is all right!
You deny everything I say and that is fine.
You think it is grandiose blustering and narcissism and I am willing to take that. You don’t realize the difference between greatness and grandiosity and conform the human being to anything less than a Monarch. You wish to put everything I stand up for down one way or another and you can do it for your self but you cannot impose that on me, as I cannot impose beauty on you.
I am as free to stand up for what I wish to as you and don’t have to change to have your approval. I do not need your approval Ton. A dialogue would have been enjoyable but you don’t know how to dialogue or stand up for your understanding with clear reasoning, your structures are not transparent. You dismiss the points attacking the person which is a well known technique of taking attention away from the issues or give homework because you yourself don’t know the lesson. Again, as in all other posts, you reduce the subject to our subjectivities and in so doing reveal your understanding. I’ve given you a page because you’ve proved that your only aim here is to mark my misgivings, not address the subjects. There is no need for you to be in the pages with subjects because you don’t read them, address them or wish to understand them. I hear all your criticism, I thank you for it. It is not that I feel in any way superior to you or anyone else for that matter, it is that the argument is based on solid enough ground and you are unable to deconstruct it or actually deal with it, not because you are inferior, We are One Ton, but because you are not willing to make the intellectual effort. You are biased before you’ve even begun and you've been angry with me long before you can remember. It is all in these blogs for anyone wishing to look at it and you are right in having being angry with my anger but my apologies have been of no worth, you cannot take anything positive.
It is a fact that I believe in what I am standing up for as the most humane approach to the problems at hand and I might very well be mistaken but until I am shown the contrary with serious enough argument and facts I will continue to stand up for it. I also believe that in a democracy there is such a freedom: to stand up for what one believes, so I have that right wether you like it or not and we will live under those freedoms in this blog for as long as possible. As long as you limit yourself to disagreeing without abusive language or behavior, you can use as much space as you find fitting. It is a great deal more than I was given in the FOFBlog for disagreeing with you and your manipulative discourse.
It is a fact that I believe in what I am standing up for as the most humane approach to the problems at hand and I might very well be mistaken but until I am shown the contrary with serious enough argument and facts I will continue to stand up for it. I also believe that in a democracy there is such a freedom: to stand up for what one believes, so I have that right wether you like it or not and we will live under those freedoms in this blog for as long as possible. As long as you limit yourself to disagreeing without abusive language or behavior, you can use as much space as you find fitting. It is a great deal more than I was given in the FOFBlog for disagreeing with you and your manipulative discourse.
I feel very good these days Ton and wish the same for you. Life out of the cult has proved promising and little by little I recover the integrity of being. You have been right about very many things but you don’t have the love that is needed for a dialogue. Never the less I value your presence and consistency. In this friction, we polish our being.
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