Corrected on the 29th of March
Hi Ton,
I think I now have the time to address your post.
8. ton – March 26, 2011 [Edit]
elena, thanks for taking time from your work to respond… you’ve got a lot of irons in the fire don’t you… i’m not sure where the ‘appropriate’ site is to post this but i’m sure you can move it or censor it as you wish.
e: “For your conflicts on individuality you might wish to look at post number 2 that I posted this morning at…”
you see elena, there you go again… I have no ‘conflict on individuality’ — what i object to is YOUR formulation, your dogmatic insistence and emphasis on the primacy of the collective at the expense of the individual —
Elena:
It seems you’ve never actually understood what I am talking about. We are One is not at the expense of the individual, it is I AM at its peak consciousness. Without that consciousness there is no individuality but individualism is rampant.________________
as evidenced by your constant refrain: “we are one.” i think you are at last finally able to realize and acknowledge the impossibly naive, limited and narrow-minded perspective your intransigence represents, you have at least begun to resort to words like “interdependent” rather than the amorphous and nondescript “Oneness.” congratulations for beginning to clear that up for yourself.
Elena:
I am not doing anything new Ton, simply expanding on the same principles that I have spoken on from the beginning.
e: “It should not surprise us that human beings are, like Nature, interdependent on each other.”
yes as i have been saying for some time now, acknowledging interdependent interconnection is much more accurate than lumping everything into your favorite slogan “we are one.” i would go further in your assessment here in that ‘we’ are not only ‘interdependent on each other’ but more importantly we are interdependent and interconnected to all of Great Nature… this obvious fact is too often overlooked by ‘modern’ people who are conditioned in many ways to be insulated and isolated from the natural world.
Elena:
People are part of the natural world as much as of the world of human beings and the world of other dimensions. The interconnectedness between them all is something I’ve been speaking about since I started writing in the fofblog. I don’t know why you are only inclined to acknowledge it today._________
Ton: e: “The forms within which people live have a structural force that sculpts their inner psychology. What IS outside of our selves, molds our inner as much as outer self in as much as we abide by the force of being one with the whole.”
what you don’t mention here is the importance of nonabiding with the force of being one with the whole…
Elena: We don’t agree on this Ton. It is important to realize that one’s childhood and youth personality is molded by the society one lives in, THAT is the beginning of “conscious consciousness” and awareness of one’s self as an individual separate from the mass of society. It can or cannot conform to the status quo but that initial revolt against the status quo that has conditioned or “programmed” the individual to a great extent is simply the beginning of a long process that can mature into full consciousness or simply reproduce, in the long run, exactly the same patterns that the individual was revolting from.
“Non-abiding with the force” of social conditionings is the first step towards maturity and individuation and it is actually recognized in society by the acceptance of the 21 year old age as maturity but separating and acquiring consciousness of one’s independence of one’s family and society is only an initial step. I don’t know whether this could be approached from the point of view of “steps” for it is not a linear process or one that is prescribed in natural development but I do believe that it is possible for each and every human being, if we look for it with enough will.
As I understand, what you are talking about is this moment in which the individual separates and “individuates” his and herself from the masses of people and their overall unchecked programming but We are One is not about that. It is about the conscious realization that “being” is consciousness of human kind, nature and all cosmoses that are included in those realms as a wholeness. That they are connected and interconnected is almost an oxymoron? because in the realization of their Oneness it is superfluous to state that they are connected and interconnected. It all depends on the dimension from which we are looking at phenomenon. In the physical dimension we see things as being separate but learn of their interconnectedness. Knowledge is knowledge of the whole or partial knowledge and in its partiality and ignorance, tends to deviate into a descending octave.
The stage of separation that you are speaking about in which the individual becomes independent from the immediate society and family is definitely a necessary step in the process of becoming a mature human being but traditionally, that initial separation entails multiple characteristics that run along with it such as “rejection” of some or all “authorities”. That rejection of parents, teachers and other authorities within the status quo may be necessary in the process of individuation for in that process the individual is struggling to acquire his and her own sense of authority. We are trying to stand on our own two feet during that period. One could call it the “No process” and remember that in it one says No to the world as it was presented to one in childhood and youth and begins to present one’s own version of how things are or should be or at least will be in as much as one can participate in them but that is not consciousness of our Oneness.
During that “No process”, some of the main characteristics are rejection, judgement, negation that can turn into aggression, negativity, violence and separation or positively resolve into mature response or both in due course. It is a period of Physical and psychological separation from people and ideas, that mark a time in which one chooses to belong to one or another ideology and lifestyle. In choosing one group of people and ideologies versus another there is a new consciousness in the individual that separates us from the “old” consciousness within family or social group, but this also is not consciousness of our Oneness.
No matter how many groups and ideologies people are prone to move in or out from, as long as they are groups separating from one another or the rest of mankind, they are not conscious of our Oneness.
What is of value to realize in relation to these groups is that they are all conditioned by specific forms of separation that entail points of conflict with each other and that often live out their existence in judgement, aggression and subtle or overt forms of violence.
Without consciousness of our Oneness we will always find points of conflict in our relations because we stand on our egoness against the egoness of the other without the willingness to share what rightfully belongs to all of us. The conflict rises in the sense of egoness in the instinctive consciousness of the individual and is generally related to who owns what, who has a right to what, and can be resolved in the consciousness of Our Rights in relation to what we share.
It is not only that the individual has rights as most people think today and justify all the selfishness of their actions with it, it is that WE all have the same rights and have never actualized that consciousness in our practical lives.
So going back to your affirmation, in my understanding, non-abiding by the mass behavior one was conditioned to live by in one’s youth, is as necessary as abiding by consciousness of our Oneness in the maturity of our lives. What one learns when one can look at life as it is, separate from one’s self, is the STATE of things, the reality of our consciousness today and its manifestation in our actual practical lives, the fact that we are living in a wildly schizophrenic, upside down and backwards period of time with very little consciousness of our Oneness and powerful selfish, egotistic, instinctive consciousness in which people, families and nations are pulling and manipulating ‘life’ towards their own personal advantage, without the compassion or consideration for the whole.
Each stage of consciousness purports particular forms of behavior and that is why becoming conscious of our unconsciousness is so critical to any possible evolution.
Our differences in relation to these issues are critical to our interchanges in relation to cults and our mutual participation in them. What your position on the subject justifies is the same narrow and blind approach to consciousness that was held in the Fellowship cult: That consciousness is an individual enterprise and that people must separate from life to evolve in an individualistic pursuit through sacrifice and effort. That is not the fourth way and aspects of other ways were introduced to enslave people into a severely egotistic precipice. Because such individualism and egotism is already a germinating tendency in society, it is not only possible but relatively easy to enslave people in such cults. These phenomenon are taking place with horrifying “normality” with millions of people belonging to different cultish organizations.
I need to move on to other things today, I’ll address the rest of your post when I have the time.
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