Tough love never worked with anyone Ton, it is not love in its principle, just authoritarism trying to impose itself, fascism in the realm of the personal. Thank you for realizing that and going your way. Be well. If you ever really wish to help anyone, sit with them without an agenda. We re-member our Oneness when we sit in each other’s presence. Bare with their anger and their pain. Allow them to scream and cry without judging them and embrace them from the confines of your heart until they recover theirs. I hope I too have learnt to do this here.
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126. ton - March 5, 2011 [Edit]
i thought we might be finished elena but you are still asking for more…. so here’s some more. a lot of people have the habit of tossing around words which they really don’t know the meaning of — you are not alone in this…. you use the word “fascism” in your “send off” to me when in reality that term accurately describes aspects of your own mindset. for your edification: fascism was originally founded by Italian national syndicalists in World War I who combined extreme right-wing political views along with collectivism. Fascists believe in singular collective identity, that a nation is an organic community requiring strong leadership, they claim that culture is created by the collective, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject individualism. as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety. Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state. Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement. sound familiar elena? “we are one” and all your threats to excommunicate anyone in disagreement with you the totalitarian dictator here… your constant denial of me as an individual…. etc.
if anyone has an agenda around here it’s obviously you… you who continually tries to control what i say and think, constantly threatening “excommunication” for freely stating my own opinions and noncompliance to your “demands.” worse still is your continual denial of me as an individual human being, negating and denying everything i say here as “not good enough.” if you call responding honestly to what i read and trying to help another soul in need an “agenda” — then so be it, i have an agenda. how dare you lecture me about “sitting with” another — i am well practiced at this my dear, and the fact that i have endured so many insults and such abuses from you would be proof enough for anyone a jot less self-absorbed than you have demonstrated here… this project in fact is nothing more and nothing less than a shrine and a testament to your own hubris and narcissism.
here are couple of other words you don’t know the meaning of…. gracious, and ingrate… now do your own research and draw your own conclusions.
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127. ton - March 5, 2011 [Edit]
re: your subject heading “state and religion” — what happens when “the state” becomes a religion ? thank you elena for providing so many minor examples here.
“During the past thirty years, people from all civilized countries have consulted me. I have treated many hundreds of patients, the larger number being Protestants. Among all my patients in the second half of life–that is to say, over thirty five–there has not been one whose problem in the last resort was not that of finding a religious outlook on life. It is safe to say that everyone of them fell ill because he had lost that which the living religions of every age have given to their followers, and none of them has really been healed who did not regain her religious outlook. That of course has nothing whatever to do with a particular creed or membership of a church.
” This is brought about by the fact that the archetypes come to independent life and serve as spiritual guides for the personality…. As the religious person would say : guidance has come from God. With most of my patients I have to avoid this formulation, for it reminds them too much of what they have to reject. I must express myself in more modest terms, and say that the psyche has awakened to spontaneous life…. To the patient it is nothing less than a revelation when, from the hidden depths of the psyche, something arises that is not ‘I’ and is therefore beyond the reach of personal caprice. He has gained access to the sources of psychic life, and this marks the beginning of the cure.”
Jung, “Psychotherapy or Clergy”
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128. Elena - March 5, 2011 [Edit]
re: post 126
My Dear Ton,
I do not try to control what you say and I do not abuse you or insult you, I simply point out that this blog is about an specific subject and you never address the subject and always point out what you think are my personal deficiencies. Pointing out your similarity to Robert and fascist behavior is a fact not an insult. In so doing, I state that your aim is to not only discredit what I say but try to convince me that what I am working on is of no value bringing a sense of worthlessness to myself and that THAT is a well known technique to disqualify people and get them to disqualify themselves. You have consistently proved that that is what you think of me although your last post in which you say you approve of everything that is here except apparently me is rather interesting because you have made of your own self a person who can never address positively what you agree with.
The truth is no insult Ton no matter how harsh it sounds.
The post you responded to is about tough love, not only fascism. Why do you think that you tend to isolate things and never actually manage to address the whole? The whole of this blog, the whole of myself, the whole of your self and the whole of US with all the positive and negative aspects in the spectrum? I think nothing defines fascism as much as the inability to see the positive side of anything, affirm it and reaffirm it until it flourishes well.
Tough love in the personal sphere is fascism. It is one person standing above another thinking that he can give her a lesson toughly and convinced that because he is consistent about it there is love. But there is no love in you Ton or at least it is so buried beneath the rubble that it would take great courage from you to dig it out. Some parents use to be like that and those who are left are leftovers of an old form that should have been done with by now. Some people still think that they can accomplish anything with authoritarism, I too have fallen into that but at least apologized but not you, you defend it as if it were the only thing you could ever resort to. Tough life!
Thanks for bringing the definition of fascism, at least it is an attempt to look at what I am trying to explore here.
“Fascists believe in singular collective identity, that a nation is an organic community requiring strong leadership, they claim that culture is created by the collective, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject individualism. as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety. Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state. Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement.”
It’s funny that you would post this and say that this blog is fascist. You have obviously not really read anything I’ve written but of course that is part of the agenda: ignoring everything that is said and bringing out what fits your own agenda.
Fascism is upside down and backwards to everything I’ve stood up for and I don’t need to prove that. Your limitation in understanding that is not mine.
As for banning you, yes, I have only so much patience with your agenda and if you become as abusive as you were before, you will certainly get banned.
I’ve found that my work progresses more positively when I don’t have to deal with your personal limitations or those that you think are mine. Tough love is not a method I care to act out or be acted with upon. The great limitation I’ve seen in you is that you cannot move from the personal sphere to the subjects in question. I would certainly agree with the idea that we can only see what our being allows and therefore our subjectivity determines our objectivity but since the aim of this blog is not simply the subjectivity of our selves, I do believe that it is worth making an effort to focus on the object of exploration to see if it brings light to our subjectivities.
I would appreciate it if you could share with us what it is exactly that you think you are helping me with Ton? What is the disability you see and what are the methods that you are using to address it? Your tough love technique is not welcome here so do you have something else that you can resort to that is more human?
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129. Elena - March 5, 2011 [Edit]
Re: post 127
Thank you for this post Ton. Here you seem to understand much better than previously what this blog is about and prove more clearly than ever that if you actually wanted to add to the subject instead of detracting from it you could have done so all along but your aim was not helping but hindering. Has that changed now?
Interesting that Jung is so clear about something that I’ve much struggled to get to and don’t regret the struggle at any point in time. As Gramsci use to say, paraphrasing, an old truth is a new truth for the person that discovers it.
This text by Jung is wonderfully helpful and I must of course look into him more completely, would you have the link to the whole text?
It fits in my exploration very much in terms of the individual but also in the level of society. It is society that with the separation of state and religion brought about the “death” of religion but it seems to me that that separation of state and religion was actually brought about from the fact that it was the church itself that separated God from man and appropriated for itself the privilege of being the one and only authorized intermediary. It set with that a structure for all the subsequent organizations that have “plagued” our societies with a “divine” authority that cannot be questioned not only in the Church itself but in the government, military, schools and universities, family, industry, cults, etc.
The back bone of the patriarchal institution is clear and the disappearance of the female equally substantial. Why has the feminine had to be subdued with force so powerful? I’m presently understanding that when in the dark ages the great witch hunt took place, what was actually “killed” was the dimension of the divinity within each and every human being. The consolidation of the Church as the sole owned of divinity and contact with it took place then and not before and since then the fixation on the purely material physical world developed. We could affirm that capitalism is in fact the child of the dark ages.
The thousands of patients that Jung worked with and the millions that still need to be treated today are precisely the generations of human beings that have lost contact with the archetypes within themselves and in that loss, lost the meaning of life: death.
The main characteristic of capitalism in terms of its psychological input is that it killed death and life has to be lived fully and instinctively, the physical owned and appropriated to the rim of its existence without the possibility of sharing in an individualism that killed the human and death means the complete and absolute END. There is no room for spirituality in capitalism and the fact that there is no room for it is expressed precisely in the fact that religion and state have been separated and moved each into its particular schizophrenic expression blind to the whole.
That status quo is what people are growing up in and Jung’s patients like the majority of human beings today, lost their own inner connectedness: the consciousness of multiple dimensions within and without the individual and with it, the lawful connectedness of life between the individual and the social sphere.
The lack of room for spirituality in capitalism is what has brought about the cult as an outlet to the dimension of the unconscious but precisely because it is a scape valve rather than a channel, the cult has introverted the status quo instead of extroverting the spiritual life of the human being and “helped” people recover the dimension of spirituality in their practical lives.
Here I speak of capitalism not as the American capitalist order but a worldwide tendency to organize society with the separation of state and religion. In communist countries, the tendency was even more powerful and dictatorial with the state replacing the spiritual ethos itself. That is an even deeper aberration very common in dictatorial states. That's an interesting connection I hadn't made. Of course! they simply replace the archetypes in the unconscious for the archetypes in the "nation" and "cult". Why exactly? Like children unable to mature looking for a dictator or a guru that will take the responsibility that people themselves are unable to assume. Perhaps it's a process within the process of self development. A particular kind of identification but what is interesting about it is that it happens in men as strongly as in women or even more so? There are also many ingredients in it similar to the "falling in love" but I've already looked at that phenomenon in cults.
What is most interesting about the exploration is that this is what happened looked at from one angle but there are many other things happening when looked at from a different perspectives and dimensions. That is what makes an exploration an aspect of consciousness.
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130. Elena - March 5, 2011 [Edit]
“… A fella ain’t got a soul of his own – just a little piece of a big soul. The one big soul that belongs to everybody …” J. Steinbeck
Elena: Could We are One have been put more beautifully?
It has been in the soul of all nations Ton, why is it that you cannot perceive it?
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