The Public Square: Nigel, Crouching Tiger, Ton, Dragon, Elena Nov-Dec.2 -09

303. Elena - November 27, 2009 [Edit]

Jomo, Ton, Crouching Tiger, you do give answers but you also avoid the questions. So convenient to remain blind isn’t it? Don’t you think the traces of Robert Burton still linger in all of you by addressing only what is convenient to you and not everything presented?

It’s one thirty in the afternoon Colombian time of the 27th Nov. 2009 after Dr. Pangloss’ post No. 89

304. nige - November 27, 2009 [Edit]

Elena

I am having difficulty digesting your comments on other bloggers and, especially, DC. Why do you feel you have to have an opinion about almost every other person’s posts? If I were you, I would put more effort into being with your people and, especially, into your glass-crafting, perhaps describing your reactions to that, very important to you, I feel, experience. Just trying to help, as I have been and am being helped…..Nigel.

305. Elena - November 28, 2009 [Edit]

What do you find difficult in relation to my post to Daily Cardiac? Can’t you see he is trying to use me to bring Bruce and Ames down? Why should I keep quiet about it? Is supporting them too much for you? Or was it too difficult for you to even read my post?

You’re not me Nigel and I’m not you. What makes you think I shouldn’t have an opinion on the things that concern me? If you want a discussion on things listen to them carefully and discuss them but please don’t patronize me. You’ve been loving and kind and I am ever so grateful to you but that doesn’t give you a right to tell me how to be or what to do. Tell me what you don’t agree with then we can talk about it. There is a sphere of communication beyond the person where we can meet. The person is crucial and wonderful to acknowledge but there is a realm in which the subject itself can be looked at without being conditioned by who is saying it. When we understand that better, we might be able to dialogue.

You’re probably upset with me because I called you silly and are going into that pattern of yours of changing sides so go ahead and move over there for as long as you want. When you’re ready to come back my arms will continue to be wide open if I’m still here. Once I love someone I try not to close my arms again no matter how angry they make me and I do love you.

306. Elena - November 28, 2009 [Edit]

Ames: …and my right to protest if an Elena comes along and dumps on us (her new blog has reached 156,000 words in over 250 posts on one—very long—page!).

It must be all that matters: the length of the posts!

No wonder you don’t write here! Sounds like Robert who wouldn’t allow us to speak about the same thing more than two minutes so that we wouldn’t grasp anything well enough! And neither of you seem to understand the point that Daily Cardiac is making that has nothing to do with the System so he continues to drill the dogma without being challenged.

And the fofblog seems like a river without rocks but there’s no dialogue in it either. No struggle, just nice people like in the Fellowship, giving up the dialogue as long as they can all post! You’re by far more successful than I am with this blog but that is not a model I would like to imitate either. It’s like in the Fellowship: everyone giving an angle on the same subject without discussing it but the beauty of a dialogue is that moment in which two people confront each other’s ideas and one helps the other move beyond him or herself and they do it because they love each other enough for the dialogue to be possible. Maybe you just no longer do that in America or Europe? No “sobet” as Rumi calls it? It isn’t much better in Colombia. People are too afraid to talk in public. That simply shows how much we’ve allowed for the public space to be alienated from us. How afraid we are of intimacy in a public realm. It is a benign world and if we can trust each other and show others that that is possible it too could spread. Love is contagious! Well, I don’t expect you to do that here but you might try it in the fofblog if you find it more suitable for your liking.

307. nige - November 28, 2009 [Edit]

Elena

I have no idea how this post is going to ‘fall on your ears’, but is seems appropriate to write it (just in some hope). Your banning, and the subsequent setting up by you, of the Public Square Site, was really to give you ‘distance to unwind from your venting and ranting’ and ‘personal vendettas’ on the FOF blog. Now, it seems, by your posts to me about argument and dialogue and your seemingly negative post to Ames, that we are getting the ’same old crap but different TV channel’. You say dialogue, when you really mean – beating your opponent down with literary sticks – i.e. negative argument and you seem to think it will lead to people respecting your ideas in the postings. I am, at heart, (and I am emotionally centred) a basically positive person, but I am damned if I am going to post on a site ‘led’ by someone who only wants to ‘batter down the walls’ of my Spititual Proposals, without trying them out for herself. For you, talking through with a consultant psychiatrist would help (I don’t know about medication – you seem to be averse to that!) and more of my suggestions about ‘grounding with your people’ Definitions follow…..

“Where there are arguments, there are idiots.” – Gurdjieff

“The Irish (both Catholic and Protestant) have initiated ‘dialogue’, in the wake of 600 years of English oppression, to great advantage.” – A National Newspaper

308. Elena - November 28, 2009 [Edit]

Thank you Nigel. Have a great journey! You’ve been extremely kind and continue to be much appreciated.

I love arguments even if Gurdjieff says they are for idiots. That is the most convincing thing I’ve heard that says he too was a guru who accepted no dissent. Had I remembered to argue in the Fellowship like I am doing here I wouldn’t have landed myself in a cult for seventeen years! But what I’m talking about is dialogue and in a dialogue the argument is not necessarily negative. People get negative when they can’t take the argument. We are seeing that right now with Daily Cardiac. He has a twisted mind process but he is still giving valid arguments that are not being contested. Instead people attack him personally very similar to what happened with me. Sometimes he is spouting out dogma but he has actually began to speak from his self too and is looking for answers sincerely and no one is giving him any. I guess that if Daily Cardiac is Girard, I just happen to understand him a little better than most of you after living with him for four years and seeing the levels of dogma being handed out day and night at the many events. You have no idea how wonderful it is that he is talking as he is and what a great opportunity it would be to help them all if you forwarded some possible alternatives and questions as I gave in my previous post to him. There are specific areas that can be tackled and are not being mentioned. Left unresolved as the fofblog is doing, it will strengthen the Fellowship’s members trust on those premises. I continue to write so that a record is kept. At least I don’t buy into any of it: not the fofblog’s position nor Daily Cardiac.

Freedom to everyone here!

309. Elena - November 28, 2009 [Edit]

309. Ton “dc’s agenda here is all too obvious, it’s about reducing the blog to a pissing contest, a game of ‘he said, she said’ in which his own opinion might be passed off as valid. in his own mind it is, it’s the “truth” he lives with. in his mind he wins this little game he’s playing if he can arrange the wording and manipulate truth so that it “resonates” in such a way as to persuade others to accept his views. as it is said “he has a right to his opinions” but in my opinion, the real “value” of his views as they’re expressed here lie solely in the fact that they provide an example of and insight into the mentality of a fof cultist.”

Elena: I agree with you Ton and more specifically, he’s trying to create doubt in everyone which is a good technique used inside reducing everyone’s thinking to subjective opinions versus his and Robert’s objective knowledge that can’t be tackled because then he answers with: lower beings cannot know or understand higher beings. If we understand that he is doing this unconsciously and sincerely and can show him these patterns this specifically, we could help him.

Daily Cardiac: One will notice that in this block of comments not one issue is addressed or refuted. There is no matching of reason with reason. It’s entirely dedicated to talking about me, projecting notions of what I am about, what my motivations “are.”

Elena: You’re right DC, I took your comments point by point because they can be looked at individually.

“in the world of norms and even relatively “moral” folks, the role of a teacher implies trust of the teacher on the part of the student… as a fiduciary a teacher is entrusted to act on behalf of the student but this sexual predator violates trust at every turn and in fact he depends upon the relationship of trusting student and his role as authority figure in order to lure his prey….”

Again, this is one broad assumption. It must first be established that the individuals being referred to were/are being coerced. There is no need for a predator if the sex is consensual. And there is no indication it is anything other than consensual. Did Robert slip a mickey to everyone wiping out the word “No” from their memories?

Elena: Here is where you change mode. You call assumption what has been traditionally understood and accepted as the role of an authority figure versus a dependent but then you use that same assumption to state that Robert is above questioning because he is a man beyond human understanding. You wipe it out as invalid and place your paradigms that no one can understand why a Teacher, Conscious being man number eight, would WORK like that with a student. They are just mind games to fit the interest. The same model serves you in one context and not in the next. In one context you use the traditional belief that a teacher should not be questioned and in the other you wipe that out and stand by the premise that being a “higher being” all his abuses can be justified. So what fits your argument to justify the status of teacher does not fit your argument to question why a superior being would abuse his dependents.

These details are ever so important and they’ve been an obstacle all throughout the blog.

One aspect is the one that addresses the individual and another the one that addresses the subject being dealt with.

I am just finding out as I go along but what I’ve noticed is that we have definite mind behavior, mind “mechanisms” to avoid seeing what is before us and if we can tap into that we can see where we err so easily.

That is one aspect. Another is that certain paradigms condition everything else. In Daily Cardiac it could be possible to study how he does it, how it is that he doesn’t see what ex-members see so clearly but then again we have the same phenomenon between ex-members and my self.

We are all including our life structures. The things we’ve heard and adopted to justify our selves. I feel like a cat following a chord that runs behind corners and I can’t quite catch but as I continue to observe the blogs go on, it is becoming clearer.

All the freedom!

310. Elena - November 28, 2009 [Edit]

If I confront the Fellowship with Jung or Steiner or myself they are theories of mine or others that are not valued. For me there is a limitation there not only in terms of the formatoriness of having to have the System as only reference but in terms of not hearing me. For me what you find beautiful in my poetry is not just the way it’s written but what is written for if it’s only the former, we’re done! I’m trying to put in prose what I understand in poetry and the journey through Jung was particularly enlightening because it not only helped me understand what was happening in the fof but in myself.

I don’t pretend that being objective is not including myself and limitations in the process. Understanding these phenomenon is not crystal clear I think for anyone here yet and if you and those on the fofblog think like that then you’ve already crystallized into something that is not what I’m interested in.

I have been extremely hurt not only by the Fellowship but in the fofblog and while I might have been very good at creating my own pain, I think the rest of you are not lame at it! There are a myriad specific issues being discussed here that are put under the blanket so that light is not shed on them and they touch our relationships in specific ways. We approve or disapprove each other, dialogue or neglect to dialogue with each other, love or dislike each other. We bind our emotional approval of each other if we don’t like the way we are being exposed intellectually, emotionally or sexually. We also compete with each other. Everything happens at the same time and the end result is that I get banned and you continue to support the blog that banned me without arguing against it, yes a few people screamed against me and voiced what so many felt but never discussed it, what makes you any better than the Fellowship? And now I am an unpronounceable subject! You’ve all committed to the silence! True that I did not want that to become a war against Ames or the moderator for it was important to protect the blog but the deep questioning is so necessary.

Nigel’s position is right. From one angle I was banned because I began screaming. I don’t deny that. But how many screamed at me before I screamed that weren’t banned? Who ever questioned that?

If we are really open with each other, we had many discussions on the fofblog and mine were a little better than many, not because I am better or healthier or superior in any way but because in those particular areas I had a little more experience. In fact, my arguments were a little better than most people’s for a long time. But having good arguments doesn’t make people love one, it makes them hate one. What Daily Cardiac is saying is the same that I feel and said: People stop addressing the argument and start attacking the individual when they can’t argue with the arguments. It was always the case that no one was able to confront Daily Cardiac as I confronted him on the fofblog. I think Jomo is superior in many ways to the way I confront him but I seem to understand something more about his psychology and situation than others. Jomo has a great deal more experience than me in other areas and it is the same with everyone else. We each have a particular area of experience that the others don’t have but in relation to the Fellowship of Friends and its horrors, I just seem to have enough to fill books and that is what is not being acknowledged because the Fellowship of Friends is not just about the Fellowship of Friends but about everything in life that put thousands of us inside from very different corners of the world and THAT is what most don’t want to discuss.

When someone is unwilling to consider the theories I present apparently disconnected to the immediate Fellowship experience, they are simply not willing to acknowledge the validity of my attempt to understand where specific aspects of the Fellowship were coming from. What I have confronted is not just the Fellowship but our selves.

Some of you want to reduce me to poems and Colombian stories and are unwilling to measure yourselves with the “theories” I present and I sincerely don’t believe it is because the theories don’t merit examination but because you are unwilling to examine them because they are 1. Coming from a woman 2. Not worth your time 3. too confusing 4. You don’t agree with them in principle 5. All of the above or just a few.

I am angry at the world. I am angry at men and women. I am furious with what I’ve experienced all my life and I am glad to say that even in all my anger I love life, men and women.

But the anger I have is specific. When I call Fellowship men sissies who allowed themselves to get raped as much as the women, children and old people I MEAN IT. And the problem is that they were already sissies when they got there. The mentality was ready for the rape. So my concern is not only the fact that the Fellowship made sissies of men but the fact that men today respond so positively to a narcissistic misogeneous sociopath.

What I am discussing here is OUR LIFE, not the Fellowship Cult. The fofblog wishes to reduce the problems to Bobby Burton but Bobby Burton is the worst victim of this whole phenomenon. You can’t come even close to explaining what happened to us if you reduce the problem to a poor idiot like me, an orphan who needs to suck penises as if they were tits because he didn’t have a father to help him become more of a man.

People in the fofblog can ban me as much as you like and pretend that you are above everyone else but you were as sick inside as you are outside. Ninety percent of ex-members are running away from the problem still hiding in the niceties of gold alchemy paraphernalia and behavior and the ten percent that is at least willing to discuss the problem is a bunch of males too afraid to deal with a woman that was raped over and over again not only by her teacher but by her husband. Raped psychologically as badly as the few were raped physically. And all you can do is put her out of the dialogue because you can’t deal with it.

It is alright not to be able to deal with it and you can say so: WE DON’T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE OF HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS but what you’ve done is ban me and shame me and treat me like a criminal, just like the Fellowship bans and shames people that don’t agree with it mostly because I called you SISSIES. What makes you less sick?

Aren’t you sissies? What is not sissie about a posture such as Ames’ that says, “I’m not trying to close the Fellowship, that would be futile!” I repeat it over and over again and I don’t believe my ears! Here we’ve been exposing every abuse of the Fellowship cult and all Ames who is one of the strongest here can say is “it’s futile to even try to close the cult that WE KNOW FROM FRESH AND DIRECT EXPERIENCE HAS RAPED AND EXPLOITED MEMBERS FOR ALMOST FORTY YEARS NOW. NO wonder Daily Cardiac addresses him, he is a guarantee for the continuation of the Fellowship cult.

You banned me because I called you FASCISTS willing to allow people to get hurt and remain quiet and I repeat it FASCISTS. Both men and women: FASCISTS

You can all keep going down that lane and I’ll get my brains shot and spread on the pavement like dirt but I will not put up with that status quo ever again in or outside any cult. That is not the life I wish my children and grandchildren to inherit or any future generation that has to put up with what we were not willing to fight. You can be all the American and European that you like and I can get shot in this country in minutes for speaking against such things but I’d rather be dead than adapt to those standards and that will come, I am just getting ready. I did it once in the cult but never again. It isn’t worth it. I fight and fight and continue to fight and lose if I must but die or live for what is worth no matter how alone.

There are many levels in our discussions and while I might support aspects of the fofblog against Daily Cardiac it doesn’t mean I support others. Nigel’s explanation of my banning is as shortsighted as one can get. Because I love him, I love him but like with my husband, that is not a condition to agree.

311. Crouching Tiger - November 28, 2009 [Edit]

Elena.

“What Daily Cardiac is saying is the same that I feel and said: People stop addressing the argument and start attacking the individual when they can’t argue with the arguments. It was always the case that no one was able to confront Daily Cardiac as I confronted him on the fofblog.”

Strange now that you’ve found your truest ally in DC. Actually, you gave DC everything he wanted while you were still on the Blog. He pushed your buttons and you reacted, and before very long you were tearing apart people who wanted to agree with you, if not with all your methods. All DC had to to do was give it a little push and you did the rest for him, to the point where a number of bloggers felt there was no way they could live with you anymore. So you were banned, and a certain unity of purpose on the blog was broken.

Your idea that you can argue with him point by point, and that is the way forward for the blog, is the reverse of what you were saying only a short while ago. Then, you were condemning people for arguing with him and taking him seriously by taking the terms of his arguments seriously. You claimed it gave him legitimacy by doing so. You said as much to me, in those very words.

Now you condemn those same people for doing the opposite, and not taking his arguments seriously enough – not going through his arguments point by point and addressing each one with the utmost care!

You have almost no memory of what you said even a short time before, but you still expect your judgment in these matters to be not only trusted, but also to be considered a higher authority.

Your constant changes of mind and changes of allegiance from Steiner to Jung to whoever do not inspire trust either. How long have you been reading Steiner or Jung? A couple of weeks? Long enough to truly understand, or just give the same old arguments a flashy new frame of reference? A little quick polish?

By doing this you are actually diluting the issues and losing concentration of purpose. I don’t feel you have the clarity to guide anyone else. You lack firmness and run away into hysteria too easily. When you do this, it is you who are being the coward. Recklessness is not the same as courage.

312. Elena - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

Thank you Crouching Tiger for speaking in this blog. Hopefully they won’t burn you at the stake!

Did you read my post to Daily Cardiac? The two last ones?

Where on earth do you see that he is my ally? Ally? “liar, liar, liar,” what makes you think that an ally is someone I call liar?

Pointing out that people don’t address the argument but the person as he does, doesn’t make him my ally!

There was never a unity of purpose on the fofblog. The majority kept silent. A group of men reacted to my posts as violently as I finally reacted and they were never questioned.

Arguing with him point by point has been done mostly by me until I thought it was an abuse that he just kept posting without being asked to give answers, then I began insulting him, sick pimp and all the rest of the insults. I certainly got tired of the game. Some have taken some of his points and they are generally good and Jomo was wonderful recently, he really touched deep but some points are not addressed that are important. His catholic or calvinist or protestant? point of view of spirituality has nothing to do with the work and no one is addressing that on the blog which means you are swallowing and letting it be swallowed and its crucial because it is such a powerful view in fellowship members convinced that that is the Work. We all ended up submitting like sheep to higher forces supposedly incarnated in Robert Burton like in a cheap comic book.

When I started insulting Daily Cardiac and screaming at him that he didn’t answer questions post after post I was certainly tired of the game and thought his being able to spread propaganda without being held accountable was absurd. A more active moderator would have helped there and then. We respect authority and moderators, another one could have directed the discussion a little better. That didn’t happen and I am glad Daily Cardiac continues to post. Don’t you understand that for me if he is Girard, I believe what helps is talking, hearing, responding, making contact? Agreeing and disagreeing is confrontational and reassuring at the same time. We need those references. One changes in the interaction not only because arguments are confronted but because there is contact. Can’t you see how happy he is here? There I mean? Frustrated because the issues are not addressed in their own terms but still participating. So my tiredness and protest when it came was certainly the declaration that I had reached a limit. Like when I insulted DXP with such a pathetic insult convinced that she was another Fellowship make believe character. Or the other guy that insulted me whose name I don’t even remember who was finally banned but not before he was able to word every insult that so many had in their mouths. And I was everything terrible, arrogant and whatever else but that doesn’t justify being banned like a criminal. You don’t realize how much those things matter do you? How we just re-enacted Fellowship behaviour?

Since you are willing to voice things for which I sincerely thank you, what do you say to that? Where am I lying or making things up? I’m no peach in cream Crouching Tiger and you could say that if I attracted all those insults something in me must have done it but I’ve been pointing out very sensitive areas of our make up and the abuse I’ve received has been covered up by equally questionable mentality as in the Fellowship Cult. Pointing out how men and women submitted, how we each gave into Robert the way we did, into the gold alchemy modeling, the hierarchic structure thinking we each were better because we were addressed by the Queen in some area even if just to rape us… Of course I’ve pointed problems out that aren’t solely Robert’s and Girard’s and THAT is what’s gotten me so many enemies and I’ll take them but I’ll take them on those grounds and not the grounds that they pretend to impose on me: sick, crazy woman that is too old to heal. Weren’t those Old FOF’s terms? Be honest Crouching Tiger, weren’t they the terms? Isn’t that what you are all supporting in your silence? Let me ask two questions: Who here or there has questioned that? and second, even in my condition What would it have to do with the things I’ve questioned? Isn’t here precisely where we can see how we use a personal condition to demeanor the arguments? I’ve never hidden how difficult leaving the fellowship was or how it affected me.

Of course I am hurt and imbalanced. Why wouldn’t I be? Do you think being banned like a criminal helped? Banned with the excuse that Fellowship members had to be protected? Have you not read them who banned me? They needed to protect their friends in the Fellowship cult! Fuck hurt ex-member!! Too bad for her!!

You all keep silent about these things and simply say that I’m crazy but these things are written down and signed by those people, I am not making these things up.

I have a pretty good memory Crouching Tiger. I remember these things well. They’ve come too close to not make a deep impression.

CT: You have almost no memory of what you said even a short time before, but you still expect your judgment in these matters to be not only trusted, but also to be considered a higher authority.—–

We should all come to trust each other. There’s too much distrust and not surprising after trusting Robert and Girard. But trusting each other does not mean following each other. And then we should not trust anyone more than our selves.

My judgments can be trusted or distrusted, that is not the point, the point is that I have a right to give out my judgments like anybody else and not to be treated like a criminal which I am not. No one worked as hard as I did on that blog for two years and Ames, Old fof , Bruce and Vena came along like the sacred cows we happen to know they think they are and took over with arguments no better than a Girard in the Fellowship would give. My point is, what is it that you keep supporting when the structure is the same? I don’t deny I was challenging and aggressive, we all were, but I got banned and I wasn’t the worst. Like someone testified on my behalf, I got run down after a long time of abuse from others. And what I am protesting is those of you who say you didn’t agree to my banning have never protested these things. But not only that, you tell me you don’t agree but then you are afraid to talk to me on this blog and then come up with the idea that my theory is worthless, I should write poetry and Colombian stories! Like a woman should? Poetry and Colombian stories is not what is supporting the Fellowship cult. Posts like Daily Cardiac’s matter and they are not being questioned deeply enough.

Crouching Tiger: Your constant changes of mind and changes of allegiance from Steiner to Jung to whoever do not inspire trust either. How long have you been reading Steiner or Jung? A couple of weeks? Long enough to truly understand, or just give the same old arguments a flashy new frame of reference? A little quick polish?

Have you bothered to read any of it? Steiner I didn’t quote that much but the text on concentration camps I posted as complete as I could. The approach and tone you have here is probably as bad as my sissies approach! Touché! I’ve read him long and plenty enough and don’t think the point is boasting about it. I write the comments in detail, they can be looked at, considered and argued, there’s dialogue in that. It is all I am asking from people who pretend to care about me because I just don’t understand why you’re ignoring the areas. I appreciate the support in the poetry and stories but the other areas are no less significant in terms of what is being dealt with and your undermining it with the argument that I haven’t read them long enough is a very cheap buffer to the question at hand.

The “changes of allegiance” is a very strange concept to me. What makes you think that we should keep allegiance to the Work, or Steiner or Jung and not the truth in all of them? The truth in the light of a very obvious phenomenon we are trying to understand and have been working on now for three years?

Levy’s work on Jung I just found and it is wonderful Crouching Tiger. It is not about me, it’s about life itself and ours in particular. I know enough of the System to understand Jung quickly. The ideas are parallel to each other. That was what I found shocking and it was written so well it wasn’t worth touching. Simply saying that my theorizing is of no value is such a separating force. The absolute rejection just doesn’t make sense. Where do you want me to fit it?

Crouching Tiger: By doing this you are actually diluting the issues and losing concentration of purpose. I don’t feel you have the clarity to guide anyone else. You lack firmness and run away into hysteria too easily. When you do this, it is you who are being the coward. Recklessness is not the same as courage.

What makes you think that I am trying to guide anyone else and not finding my self? I don’t conceive of having followers, god knows I can barely carry myself and have made that obvious, but pretending to dialogue does not seem too crazy an idea. I actually value what I have to offer a great deal and in fact do value what others offer even when I question it.

I lack firmness and run away into hysteria too easily? So that makes me guilty enough to be banned like a criminal? I am so glad my state has been obvious! Why would it be any other way? You land at fifty in a place you haven’t been in for thirty years, without contacts or job, deeply mistrustful of everything and everyone after investing 19 years of your energy to a cult. Why would I be any firmer or less hysteric? And you think banning or comments like this one help? Fortunately I’ve just passed the worst period. I’m not nearly as vulnerable as I was in the fofblog, Nigel and Dragon helped me wonders and I will not turn my back on either one no matter how much we disagree. I’m not too great either but at least not so deeply in the gutter.

I don’t think being vulnerable under these conditions makes me a coward CT. I don’t think calling things by their name as I do is cowardly. Coward acts seem those that say, “we know what is going on and find it futile to act against it” like Ames just said and since all of you participating in the fofblog implicitly agree to the status quo that banned me and therefore with those stands, I ask you again, isn’t that too sissy? You deal with a sick and aggressive woman banning her and let a narcissistic misogynous sociopath go free because it’s futile to try to stop him! Where are we?

Your last phrase is a gem: recklessness is not courage. Oh Crouching Tiger, as they say here, make fame and go to sleep! I just can’t win can I? If I patiently study the situation and look for more experienced authors for months to present ideas that resonate with mine, I am not good enough, If I scream; not good enough, if I stand on Ames’ side against Daily Cardiac as I did in my last posts or question you for saying it is futile to try to stop the Fellowship, I’m reckless!! I’m reckless in your eyes no matter what so why do you even bother? What I find strange is that you can neither discard me with the same coldness Ames and Bruce do nor embrace me whole. It seems worth struggling a little longer that we can at least dialogue accepting the conditions! Or as others have done, wish each other well and move on!

314. Elena - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

Just shows how many years you’ve been out Bruce. All of Girard’s books are filled with the same stuff and each event is filled with it. And he is not only not banned but people pay to be there and travel for days from centres to listen to it. And the boys like you just ignore it and travel with Robert for the pretty clothes and privileges and look down at everyone else like Robert does.

Thank you for reminding me how they banned me in the Fellowship only to justify and reaffirm your banning me in the fofblog. After all you both have the same cult behavior and ban anyone who disagrees ganging up with each other and in love just like in the Fellowship, such cool barbies! And can’t be bothered to argue the points that matter because you’re so superior! And are all so clear about the Fellowship crimes but find it futile to act against it because after all you’re too comfortable to care about what is happening to anyone inside but it’s a great excuse for another club. The obvious truth is that as long as it’s other Barbies like you ripping people off that you don’t know, you give shit.

At least I argued and didn’t let them fuck me willingly like you did you macho sicko who can’t fail an opportunity to put a woman down with a whack like you did to Tatyana and Josiane with the silence of your congregation. Isn’t your machoness what allowed you to go along with Robert for such a long time? Then why are you still behaving like him and supporting him to put me down? Just to shut me up for exposing your sissiness which is just as filled of machism as Robert’s?

But the irony of it all is that you banned me to protect members so that they could talk with you and as soon as he says something on my behalf you treat him like dirt, like you treated everything before I started questioning you. You managed to get him talking and now that he’s talking you find it impossible to dialogue with him helping him stay inside because outside you’re just as sick!

132. brucelevy – November 29, 2009 116. ton

“i have to wonder, is dc paid to insert burtonism into the blog?”

I get the distinct feeling that’s it’s more in the realm of self-created apparent worth, in relation to RB and the FOF. If you think about it, the blog is much more of a captive audience for DC than anyone in the FOF. I can’t imagine anyone actually stands around and listens to his pompous, deluded bull shit even in the FOF. Yet here he is spouting his crap, while I’m sure if he did the same at a meeting, and it wasn’t pre-written and pre-approved they’d tell him to STFU, using flowery words of course. Or give him a task, like they did Elena.

I’d love if RB gave DC his opinion of him using all his precious higher energies on the crap he puts so much time in here. One would think, as awakening is something for one’s self, and can’t be given to others, why a successful student would be looking for attention and energy here when he lives in an environment where, supposedly, they all share the same basic goal. Why would DC continually put pearls before swine. Because he’s a loser and a douche bag, and that’s objective knowledge goodness. When your level of being changes, you’ll see that I’m right.

DC…”And there is no indication it is anything other than consensual.”

And he’s fucking stupid, shallow and impervious to the obvious.

315. Crouching Tiger - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

I can’t answer you at the same length, but I’ll try to address the essential points:

* “Where on earth do you see that he is my ally? Ally? “liar, liar, liar,” what makes you think that an ally is someone I call liar?”……………

“What Daily Cardiac is saying is the same that I feel and said: People stop addressing the argument and start attacking the individual when they can’t argue with the arguments.”

That makes him your ally in the sense that you want to operate on the same wavelength as him. Argument unrelated to the mouth/psychology it comes out of.

* “When I started insulting Daily Cardiac and screaming at him that he didn’t answer questions post after post I was certainly tired of the game and thought his being able to spread propaganda without being held accountable was absurd.”

You told everyone else on the blog that you thought they should be doing exactly the same, and not legitimizing DC by responding without rancour.

* “Of course I’ve pointed problems out that aren’t solely Robert’s and Girard’s and THAT is what’s gotten me so many enemies …”

So the real reason you got banned is that you pointed out areas where posters were still fellowship victims in their thinking? Do you really believe that?

“Ames, Old fof , Bruce and Vena came along like the sacred cows we happen to know they think they are and took over with arguments no better than a Girard in the Fellowship would give. My point is, what is it that you keep supporting when the structure is the same?”

What you’re saying is that because the blog hurt and rejected you, it must somehow be like the fellowship which did the same? Are you sure?

* “I should write poetry and Colombian stories! Like a woman should? ”

I asked you to write from your experiences in the fellowship, as simply and as directly as possible. So why try and twist the truth?

* The Steiner/Jung question is partly a question of length. Several bloggers pointed out to you that your contributions were too long and too arduous to read for a blog. Of course you can do whatever you want on your own blog, but if you have to interact with others in a truly public forum, you might want to take that on board. Why not just post a link and write about the essential points? Brevity and concentration stand a better chance of keeping people’s attention.

So I don’t say your theorizing has no value at all, but I do say it should be kept firmly in the background. What we want to know about is who YOU are and what your experiences were, and for you to hold on to that question at all times…

* “What makes you think that I am trying to guide anyone else and not finding my self?”

Because you are always attempting to guide people’s responses in the direction you think they should be pointing. Latest example being DC and how to respond to him. If posters don’t take exactly the same approach as you, you tell them that their compass is broken and they should trust you instead. “I am the only one here addressing the issues” or words to that effect. People can’t breathe in that environment.

And yes, being so constantly sensitive to other people’s responses, and trying by force to influence them in the way you want, does detract from your effort to find yourself again.

* “I lack firmness and run away into hysteria too easily? So that makes me guilty enough to be banned like a criminal?”

Apparently yes, because that is what happened. I don’t know if it makes you a criminal, but it certainly made you a outcast from the blog. What I would wish for you is that you stand firm when the hysteria comes, and not take flight into it and try to make judgments from it. That helps keep the dialogue open, and that is what you want, is’nt it? That’s where the courage is necessary – to stand firm in the face of a powerful force inside you – in order to get something you really need…

* “What I find strange is that you can neither discard me with the same coldness Ames and Bruce do nor embrace me whole.”

Do I wish to discard you? No. Do I wish to throw myself blindfold into the whirlpool of your psychology? Again, no.

But I am willing to stand here until you come to your senses. I expect Nigel feels the same way.

316. nige - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

Thanks CT. Yes, I will stay with this wondeful/difficult woman – I don’t know if it will be until she, like me, has found ’strong peace’ “but yet a little while”…..

Elena

A little story from Saturday, when we went over the 1K mark in sales in our exhibition. A certain Mrs Noble came into our gallery and started a stimulating line of thought for me but however, became annoying for my two artists who were in the studio and gallery – Lynn, my ‘wispy jewellery making’ Lunar-Venusian-Mercury, Jack of Hearts (we all have trouble in the studio following her life stories) and Sam our ‘way-out-there-on-an-artistic-limb’ 10 of spades Solar (mainly). See, it was obvious from go that Mrs Noble was a Venus-Merc with a power feature and wanted to play options with people’s artistic talents (“I would really like a combination of artists to work on this OH! SO SPECIAL PROJECT”). Well, positive me over-the-limits-of-reason thought about the idea overnight and came to the conclusion that I guess Sam and Lynn had come to (I have yet to phone them to find out) that No! We don’t want a mix-up of talent/style…..

I guess what I am trying to emphasise, Elena, is that you are not ‘doing’ by messing with people’s heads by ‘whipping up a blog frenzy’. It’s like pissing windward…..you only wet yourself. Nuff said…..Nigel.

317. Elena - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

Hi Crouching Tiger, Thanks for affirming that last sentence. I wonder what’s taken you so long! It is much appreciated!

* “Where on earth do you see that he is my ally? Ally? “liar, liar, liar,” what makes you think that an ally is someone I call liar?”……………

“What Daily Cardiac is saying is the same that I feel and said: People stop addressing the argument and start attacking the individual when they can’t argue with the arguments.” That makes him your ally in the sense that you want to operate on the same wavelength as him. Argument unrelated to the mouth/psychology it comes out of.

Elena: It’s like saying we are friends because we are riding on the same boat! You can’t loose one can you?

You told everyone else on the blog that you thought they should be doing exactly the same, and not legitimizing DC by responding without rancour.

Elena: Are you sure yourself? Bruce has been spitting on him since the beginning and I don’t remember telling Bruce what to do! * “Of course I’ve pointed problems out that aren’t solely Robert’s and Girard’s and THAT is what’s gotten me so many enemies …” So the real reason you got banned is that you pointed out areas where posters were still fellowship victims in their thinking? Do you really believe that?

Elena: the real reason I got banned is because I confronted the people in the fofblog with the fact that they were not willing to do anything serious against the Fellowship cult. I called them FASCISTS and on top of it I did it in a very aggressive desperate way. I also called them sissies and forgot to mention that in the end as long as it’s other Barbies living of non Barbies they give a damm if the Fellowship goes on!——–

What you’re saying is that because the blog hurt and rejected you, it must somehow be like the fellowship which did the same? Are you sure?

Yes, I’m sure that the mechanism the fofblog used to ban me is exactly the same mechanism that the fof cult uses to ban people without addressing the issues and justifying it by the persons “negativity” just like they threw Ames and five others when they questioned Linda in a meeting.

* “I should write poetry and Colombian stories! Like a woman should? ”

I asked you to write from your experiences in the fellowship, as simply and as directly as possible. So why try and twist the truth? Elena: Yes, it’s Nigel that wants to reduce me to poetry and Colombian stories but you’ve equally dismissed the rest of the material.

* The Steiner/Jung question is partly a question of length. Several bloggers pointed out to you that your contributions were too long and too arduous to read for a blog.

Elena: It’s like saying we can’t use the long rope even if it’s the only one that fits to pull the sunk boat out of the water!

But I’ll accept one thing. I’ve been sick and needing reassurance ever since I gave my self up to the Fellowship and I took more space than was necessary expressing how needy I’ve been. I’ve been acting like a sick desperate person and that is how I’ve been. There were excesses in the fofblog, many of them, I don’t deny that but others were no less excessive and the moderator took sides because the mind frame was bias enough and you who say you didn’t agree, didn’t question THAT. One person said it clearly but you let it fly by unnoticed. You’ve all been quiet for months! And you know what Crouching Tiger? At this point I don’t want to go back to the fofblog. That is not the point. I’m glad I’m out of that club too. What I think is valuable is that we look in detail at how we behave. Do you see how clearly the pattern is to that of the Fellowship? ———-

Of course you can do whatever you want on your own blog, but if you have to interact with others in a truly public forum, you might want to take that on board. Why not just post a link and write a about the essential points? Brevity and concentration stand a better chance of keeping people’s attention.

Elena: the long rope is a poor excuse CT. We spent decades in the Fellowship cult. Cults with these characteristics are a new phenomenon that we are just beginning to understand. Exploring material is part of the job. When there is valuable material it helps us all. That is one aspect, the other is the length of my own posts and yes I am long. I am not a professional writer, I am confused and writing has helped me under-stand, know where I stand. When I know it’ll be very easy to sinthetize. But pretending that is a crime is just formatoriness that doesn’t really want to listen. It’s not the subject but the person what is being ignored no matter how we excuse it!

Like for example in this recent interchange the most important thing that is happening is that Daily Cardiac is giving out very specific points of dogma that I’ve addressed and need addressing and you don’t even consider that. The theory matters because people follow what they believe and questioning those beliefs with the System matters, which is what DC is pretending to stand on. At this point offering other frameworks is not only positive but necessary because people are at a loss and they won’t replace Fellowship dogma first until they understand what it is and second until they find a better one. I sincerely believe DC, hard headed as he is, is not intentionally lying and is wanting to hear different possibilities but they don’t have them on the fofblog, they turn in the same wavelength as you say. Mine might be wrong but they are very different a pretty clear and that is what is being avoided ——-

* “What makes you think that I am trying to guide anyone else and not finding my self?”

Elena: Two aspects here: one of behavior and one of content. The behavior aspect is interesting because as soon as DC questioned Ames about me, can you see the fofblog’s reaction? They stopped dialoguing with him and are beginning to insult which was totally against their aim when they banned me for that is how they justified my banning. All the noise and the meaouwing are just buffers! Can you feel it? The content is important and that is what you avoid when you don’t look at the theory. The theory is in fact so powerful that after two years all the fofblog could say about my theory is that they wished me luck with my Joan of Arc act. Now that I’m showing the same things based on Jung and Levy that say them so short and efficiently, you won’t read them anyway! These things matter if we wish to be serious about our selves and what we are doing here.——- And yes, being so constantly sensitive to other people’s responses, and trying by force to influence them in the way you want, does detract from your effort to find yourself again.

Elena: What responses CT? It’s the first time you actually speak here with a full voice.

* “I lack firmness and run away into hysteria too easily? So that makes me guilty enough to be banned like a criminal?” Apparently yes, because that is what happened. I don’t know if it makes you a criminal, but it certainly made you a outcast from the blog. What I would wish for you is that you stand firm when the hysteria comes, and not take flight into it and try to make judgments from it. That helps keep the dialogue open, and that is what you want, is’nt it? That’s where the courage is necessary – to stand firm in the face of a powerful force inside you – in order to get something you really need…

Elena: Two aspects here: first you’re justifying the blog’s response which I already addressed above and second you’re asking me to be stronger and not get desperate when I feel so frustrated about your not listening. Thank you, I’ll try. One day soon perhaps.

* “What I find strange is that you can neither discard me with the same coldness Ames and Bruce do nor embrace me whole.” Do I wish to discard you? No. Do I wish to throw myself blindfold into the whirlpool of your psychology? Again, no.

Elena: You have been discarding me for the length of this blog. You have been avoiding to take this subject up in public. You have been thinking that the solution for all this is that I concentrate and write a book and take my lot of this play quietly to a different group of people and assume the shame of having been banned in another venue because I am a lunatic who screams loud and I am not willing to do that until we are able to stand in public and talk as you are doing because it is in public that I’ve been banned with your silences and blessings. If you are changing that hooray, then everything can change! But until we stand on the truth, nothing can move.——–

But I am willing to stand here until you come to your senses. I expect Nigel feels the same way.

Elena: When we come to the truth of what has really been going on here, we’ll all come to our senses! I thought Nigel had gone already. Your pissing metaphor is cheap Nigel; it is not appreciated. Your dark side comes out subtly. Your siding with each other to avoid my questions is questionable. But I appreciate your willingness to stick it out even together until things are clearer.

319. Crouching Tiger - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

Well Elena, both Nigel and I have said our pieces.

Neither of us is obliged to be your ‘listener’, our appearances here are purely voluntary. And this conversation isn’t going to be the cue for a much more regular interaction in your version of ‘the public square’.

If it doesn’t feel like dialogue, it ain’t one. To me, this feels more like I’m occasionally being let in on your private stream of consciousness, and that’s not my idea of conversation, I’m afraid.

Neither myself nor Nigel, to the best of my knowledge, is scared of the questions you raise. But I feel Nigel is right on the button when he talks about your ‘whipping up a blog frenzy’ and ‘beating people down with literary sticks’. The sheer enormity of your posts, and the enormity of your reaction if anyone dares to contradict you, does feel like a beating-down. It’s a form of violence, but you don’t see it.

It also leads to lying:

Only you could interpret asking someone to talk simply and directly about their experiences as a dismissal!

I hope that one day, you learn to listen as well as you talk.

320. Crouching Tiger - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

The lie was –

“I asked you to write from your experiences in the fellowship, as simply and as directly as possible. So why try and twist the truth?

Elena: Yes, it’s Nigel that wants to reduce me to poetry and Colombian stories but you’ve equally dismissed the rest of the material.”

Asking you to write from yourself is the opposite of a dismissal.

321. Elena - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

I guess my defense didn’t suit you just as I thought we were beginning to talk Crouching Tiger.

Sounds like you too are leaving. I wish you well.

322. Crouching Tiger - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

Just try taking some of that armour off, and throwing down a few of those weapons, and all would be well.

323. Elena - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

Wow, what are you talking about. I’m not angry, my response was not violent. It is clear and simple and thoughtful and you are unwilling to address the points. You see? If I am not hysteric but firm you also won’t listen! Here they are again, I would particularly appreciate it if you take into consideration the question of being banned by the fofblog and the question of Daily Cardiac’s posts:

317. Elena – November 29, 2009 [Edit] Hi Crouching Tiger, Thanks for affirming that last sentence. I wonder what’s taken you so long! It is much appreciated!

* “Where on earth do you see that he is my ally? Ally? “liar, liar, liar,” what makes you think that an ally is someone I call liar?”……………

Elena: It’s like saying we are friends because we are riding on the same boat! You can’t loose one can you?

You told everyone else on the blog that you thought they should be doing exactly the same, and not legitimizing DC by responding without rancour.

What you’re saying is that because the blog hurt and rejected you, it must somehow be like the fellowship which did the same? Are you sure?

* “I should write poetry and Colombian stories! Like a woman should? ”

* The Steiner/Jung question is partly a question of length. Several bloggers pointed out to you that your contributions were too long and too arduous to read for a blog.

Elena: It’s like saying we can’t use the long rope even if it’s the only one that fits to pull the sunk boat out of the water!

Like for example in this recent interchange the most important thing that is happening is that Daily Cardiac is giving out very specific points of dogma that I’ve addressed and need addressing and you don’t even consider that. The theory matters because people follow what they believe and questioning those beliefs with the System matters, which is what DC is pretending to stand on. At this point offering other frameworks is not only positive but necessary because people are at a loss and they won’t replace Fellowship dogma first until they understand what it is and second until they find a better one. I sincerely believe DC, hard headed as he is, is not intentionally lying and is wanting to hear different possibilities but they don’t have them on the fofblog, they turn in the same wavelength as you say. Mine might be wrong but they are very different and pretty clear and that is what is being avoided ——-

* “What makes you think that I am trying to guide anyone else and not finding my self?”

Elena: What responses CT? It’s the first time you actually speak here with a full voice.

But I am willing to stand here until you come to your senses. I expect Nigel feels the same way.

324. Elena - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

CT:Asking you to write from yourself is the opposite of a dismissal.

Dividing me into pieces in which my so called theories are of no value is a dismissal and you’re doing it again in your answers by totally neglecting to acknowledge what I am saying and returning to the personal pattern of addressing an aspect of personality as in being in armor. Can’t you see it clearly? Where did I do that to you?

325. Elena - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

Sitting looking at pictures Without faces Your image, invisible in my heart

In the realm of poetry Without words Silence speaks

When two hearts Become connected There’s no space in between

The petals of my spirit Come out to yours In colours

Each word A feeling petal A colour of thoughts

I touch the rainbow Of your smile In the rain of your laughter

I dance in the puddles Of your absence A song of love

Of love Alone A song

326. Crouching Tiger - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

I’m sure you’re right Elena. May I go now?

327. Crouching Tiger - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

Nice poem by the way.

328. Crouching Tiger - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

The Conceited Mistake.

Once upon a time there was a mistake So silly so small That no one would even have noticed it

It couldn’t bear To see itself to hear of itself

It invented all manner of things Just to prove That it didn’t really exist

It invented space To put its proofs in And time to keep its proofs And the world to see its proofs

All it invented Was not so silly Nor so small But was of course mistaken

Could it have been otherwise

329. dragon - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

330.

What a poem!

330. Elena - November 29, 2009 [Edit]

228 You must be talking about me because you’re infallible right? It’s a strange way to use poetry: to put one’s self in the “right” position and expose the other as being wrong. Feels like an upside down and backwards way of using poetry.

No one has said sorry more times than I have or exposed themselves as much as I have but I’m done with that in relation to the matter at hand. In all conflict both sides are responsible and while I have spent months recognizing my sad behavior you insist on pretending you and those on the blog are impeccable. What is the difference between you and Robert and the Fellowship? You hold us to the past keeping us from proceeding from the present.

It’s not apologies what you’re looking for but submission And there’s no submission in this heart No matter how much it tries or cries I’m so glad we are able to talk before indulging in such a serious project.

Crouching Tiger: I’m sure you’re right Elena. May I go now? And you call that the work? When have I kept you?

331. Elena - November 30, 2009 [Edit]

Again, challenging the idea that no conflict is positive and replacing it for allowing each other to live through the conflict with trust. http://www.awakeninthedream.com/artis/AWAKENING%20IN%20THE%20DREAM%20GROUPS.htm

AWAKENING IN THE DREAM GROUPS by Paul Levy

I’m not sure whether to say that my friends and I have developed a new way of working with people’s dreaming processes, or to say that we’ve discovered something. In any case, it is clear that we’ve tapped into something profound.. More accurately, I feel safe in saying that something has been revealed through following our inner dreaming process (what I call “following the dreaming”). I feel strongly drawn to share what my friends and I are experiencing in our “Awakening in the Dream Groups,” as it can be of great benefit to many people.

Let me start off by saying that these groups are not for everyone, as they require a high degree of being able to self-reflect and be vulnerable. They only work if enough people in the group are awake enough to realize what we are doing, as they act as so much yeast in the dough, so to speak, helping the bread to leaven. The groups are radically changing people’s lives.

These “Awakening in the Dream” Groups are based on our life being a dream, more specifically, they are based on how we are “dreaming up” our life moment by moment. In a sense, we are doing a radical experiment, as we are actually imagining that our situation is indeed a dream, and following what this shows us. The groups are based on the projective tendencies of our mind, how we are in essence dreaming in and up our life in a way that’s similar to how we do at night, where our inner process is getting dreamed up into and as our waking life itself. The same dreaming mind that is dreaming our dreams at night is dreaming our life. In a sense, in the groups we are just doing real dreamwork, with the dream being what happens in the group.

We are discovering that we can inquire into who we are by following the process of our being together, without any agenda, structure or strategy about what we’re going to do. I call this “following the dreaming.” The groups and the relationships in the group themselves become the vehicle for realization, as over time, our psyche’s intermingle, pushing each other’s buttons, triggering projections, touching and effecting each other’s unconscious. And we simply inquire into this process, by entering the same present moment together with the realization that we are merely dream characters in each others dream. What this means is that we realize that we are all embodied reflections of each other, as well as that every moment we are all dreaming up this mass shared dream together. This is a waking dream that is mutually, interdependently getting dreamed up by all of us together. We are all getting dreamed up and picking up roles in each other’s process. We are all dreaming up the deeper dreamfield, while concurrently, we are being dreamed up by it. This is not some sort of elaborate visualization practice, but is simply seeing the truth of our situation. When everyone is training seeing the dreamlike nature of our situation, a certain field gets conjured up that is very lubricated for healing.

Part of the process is the sharing of our imaginings, our projections, our hallucinations that we have onto each other’s inkblots with each other. Imagine a dream where all of the dream characters are sharing their projections with each other. We are all in a position to see each other in a way that each of us, by ourselves, can’t. Of course, it is up to each one of us whenever we get the rest of the group’s reflections to discern if people are just projecting, or are they really seeing our blind spot? When a dream character in a dream shares their imaginings, their projections of who you are, of what they imagine you are doing, it would be foolish to at least not consider what they are saying.

There is something about being really seen by other people. Imagine being in a dream and have your fellow dream characters actually see where you are asleep, see your unconscious, your blind spot. If this is a dream, who are those fellow dream characters who are seeing your unconscious but the awakening parts of you? And how can this not have an effect on you?

By inquiring into the nature of our experiences together, we discover that we are not in a position to actually know what is happening seemingly “out there” in the group (there’s always the possibility of us projecting, distorting, deluding ourselves). Someone might be doing something, for example, and everyone will be seeing what they are doing differently, it’s not a question of who’s right, but this is pointing to something- that we are not in a position to know what is “objectively” happening out there, but we are in a position to know what we are perceiving (what our particular hallucination is). By everyone in the group expressing themselves out of this realization, it cuts through blame, as well as allowing people to not take things personally. People can then openly share their projections, for we are taking responsibility for our experience.

In the groups, we have the intention to awaken, to transduce light. What this, of course, means is that we will invariably evoke the unconscious, which will act itself out in and through the group. Like Jung says, when an unconscious content is ready to be integrated, it always appears physically, ie- it gets dreamed up into the dreamfield. The split-off, unconscious parts of ourselves get projected out and dreamed up by, through, and into the group. To again quote Jung, “everything unconscious, once it was activated, was projected into matter- that is to say, it approached people from outside.” There’s something about having fellow dream characters who are turned onto this realization that creates a net, or container, in which, instead of allowing the unconscious to vaporize, we can catch and anchor the unconscious content to consciousness, taking away its omnipotence and autonomy, as well as liberating the energy that was bound up in it for creative expression. This is true alchemy.

When someone steps into the unconscious, they are like psychic flypaper, or an out of phase inkblot that immediately attracts people’s unconscious projections. For you cannot see the unconscious and remain a passive member of the audience, once you see the unconscious you are a participant in the scene, it all depends on your ability to self-reflect and assimilate what has gotten triggered in you. Any one of us being able to metabolize what has gotten activated in us helps all of our fellow dream characters, as this realization registers in the collective consciousness of the group (not to mention the whole universe). In a sense, this is full-embodied, group dreamwork.

To the extent that we are disconnected and dis-associated from ourselves, we are incongruent, which will evoke and attract other peoples projections and processes onto our out of phase inkblot, as we get dreamed into a role in their dream, and they in ours. We unconsciously react to and amplify in our waking dream exactly what needs to be played out so as to express in embodied form our inner process. We all project, or dream onto the inkblot of life, connecting the dots in such a way so as to literally “dream up” into materialization our very inner process onto and as the seemingly outer universe, and then we become entranced by the manifestation, imagining it to be objectively existing and separate from us. In the group, we are helping each other to actually stay in and work through this very convincingly real and seductive situation, as this is the place where we can, in real time (the present moment) transmute this energy, dream the dream differently and assimilate this unconscious content.

At any one point, just like the pendulum with the strongest swing entrains the other pendulums, someone’s (unconscious) dreaming process gets activated and everyone else gets dreamed into that person’s dream, playing whatever roles are required for the unfoldment of that activated dreaming process. And of course, the role we get dreamed up into by the field is magically not only the role that others need us to play, but is at the same time the very role we need to step into and unfold for our own deepest healing. That is simply what is happening all the time with everyone, I am talking about getting a group of people who are awake to this process and creating a container where, instead of just acting it out unconsciously, thereby perpetuating our woundedness, we add one key ingredient- consciousness.

Let me just say that it is not easy work. People could be studying with me for weeks, months, and really “getting” the whole theory of how we are all dreaming each other up, picking up roles in each other’s process so as to actually incarnate, into materialized form as our very life itself our inner dreaming process. But once someone’s unconscious is activated, and their projections fly out onto the inkblot of the group, they are typically not aware that they are dreaming (that the boundary has collapsed between inner and outer- they are then “inside” of their mind). To the extent that people get absorbed into their own dreaming process, they will be unaware that what they are experiencing in embodied form as the actual process in the group, is itself nothing other than the materialization, the embodied expression played out in real time on the screen of their waking consciousness, of their own inner dreaming process. When this happens, it is like their inner wound, their trauma has blossomed out of their psyche and has spilled into actual reality and is playing itself out on the real time stage of the group. People can become so entranced with the seeming “realness” of the reality that they have dreamed up that they actually decide to leave at this point. I have seen this happen again and again, and it is happening as I write this in one of my groups. It is so interesting to watch- right at the point they have dreamed up into seemingly solid form the very inner process that they need to work through, they get freaked out, scared and leave. The group has come up with a saying “You either change or you leave the group and blame the group.”

It’s those times when the person recognizes the deeper process that is happening and stays, that they literally as well as symbolically, access it in a way where they can dream it through, actually metabolizing and assimilating part of their unconscious. It’s like enacting on the stage of life an inner process that you just needed to play out, to actually incarnate and give physical form to, doing it in the imagination alone just wouldn’t work, you had to imagine it into being. There is something about where these two worlds co-incide that is where the real healing happens.

Dreaming up our inner unhealed process in and as our life is related to the underlying teleology of the repetition compulsion of trauma, where we are continually dreaming up our trauma in our life so as to unfold, discharge and complete an incomplete process. Unless it’s done in a container like the group, however, where we are able to assimilate the activated and embodied unconscious, our attempt at repeating our trauma so as to complete the process simply recreates the very trauma we are trying to heal from, which simply feeds into the compulsion to try and recreate it so as to heal it, ad infinitum. An infinitely self-generating feedback loop.

Whenever a shadow element manifests through someone, and they embody and act out the unconscious, instead of in a typical group, where any sort of conflict is marginalized (“we’re about love and harmony here, we can’t have any conflict,” which is just a reflection of how inwardly polarized we all are towards our own darkness), in these groups, any sort of conflict is seen to be a doorway into the deeper process- friction creates light. Like an alchemical container, there needs to be enough “pressure” for the “prima materia” to transform. To the extent that these shadow energies are consciously seen, worked with and embraced, they become integrated and literally flesh out our full-spectrum (both light and dark) holograms, which is what genuine incarnation is all about.

Being awake to the dreamlike nature of our situation is to see, in terms of physics, that we are all inifinite wave forms pulsating anew in and out of the void every nanosecond. How we perceive each other’s infinitely fluid, full-spectrum, multi-dimensional hologram literally collapses each other’s wave function into particularized form. How we observe the dream has an instantaneous effect on how the dream manifests, as the observer is literally the observed.

In this waking dream of ours we are, like I have suggested, mutually collapsing each others wave functions- ie, dreaming each other up (or down)- but in a nonlinear, acausal way, where I am dreaming you up, but you are dreaming me up to dream you up, ad infinitum as well as visa versa. In a process with no beginning in time, but rather a process that happens outside of time itself, in no time, faster than the twinkling of an eye, we dream each other up to unconsciously act out, in embodied form our incomplete processes. To the extent that I’m asleep to your intrinsic multi-dimensionality (as well as my own), I will solidify your convincingly real manifestation, making it more probable that this will be how you will continue to incarnate in my waking dream, and once you manifest in this way, it confirms to me even more my solidified view of you, so I will “dream you up” this way even more, ad infinitum, and visa versa (you are doing the same thing to me). In addition, once you experience me as a dream character in your dream who is solidifying you in this way, to the extent you fall asleep and get hooked by my manifestation, you will not only be more likely to manifest in exactly that way, but you will solidify me as someone who solidifies you, which will even more increase the probability that I will dream you up in that very way, ad infinitum, as well as visa versa. I am trying to get across a sense of how the dreaming up process is collaborative, circular, what Buddhism calls “interdependent co-origination.” I am merely mapping and describing what is happening all of the time with everyone, only it’s happening unconsciously.

In the groups we are having insight into when someone manifests in their limited, problematic identity pattern (what I call their Halloween costume). The habitual tendency is to become entranced, as if under a spell and imagine that this is who they actually are (as their manifestation is certainly convincing, in a full-embodied way), thereby solidifying and concretizing their infinitely fluid multi-dimensional hologram (not to mention, solidifying ourselves in the process), which increases the probability even more that this is how they will continue to manifest. When we don’t get hooked by their impermanent display, however, not solidifying them as being how we are momentarily experiencing them, and then reacting to our solidified image of who we imagine them to be as if it’s objectively who they are, we discover that they have much more space to step out of the concretized role that they themselves were caught in, which not only helps them but ourselves as well. This can potentially snap us out of an infinitely self-perpetuating, closed feedback loop, an infinite regression that we were co-llaboratively co-dreaming, as we are both able to step out of and transcend a role each of us had been caught in. We continually re-discover that we are all mutually, interdependently dreaming up our dreaming processes together to a point where they synchronistically co-incide and co-rrelate, actually materializing and incarnating into and as our waking dream itself. Simply recognizing the dream-upable nature of our situation and following what this is showing us offers us an opportunity for healing and integration that simply isn’t available to us by our seemingly alienated selves.

So in the groups we give each other permission to step over our edge and speak the marginalized voice, to step into a role that the deeper dreamfield is thirsting for someone to pick up and play. When someone steps over their edge and picks up the marginalized voice that the field is dreaming up, this activates what I call the deeper dreaming process. This allows the deeper, underlying process to incarnate and transform itself. Everyone in the group becomes transformed in the process.

If this is indeed a mass shared dream that we are all dreaming up, then whenever someone picks up a role in the dream, falls into their unconscious, pushes our buttons, gets into a conflict, etc, they are just getting dreamed up by the deeper dreamfield to play this out for all of us. And if this is truly a dream, if we view what is happening in this way, then this dreamlike reality of ours has no choice but to spontaneously shape-shift and manifest in this way.

I am not in the normal role of facilitator, as I, as much as anyone, go over my edge, sharing my struggles and step into my unconscious, becoming vulnerable and open for reflections. When I step into my unconscious, the role of facilitator needs to get picked up by someone else in the group, as not only can I not play both these roles at once, but the facilitator is clearly just a role in the field that needn’t be monopolized. When an unconscious content is in the process of getting integrated, that particular role starts to fluidly switch between members in the group, as it is literally getting metabolized by the group (instead of just one person monopolizing a role as they always get dreamed up into the same role). This is all just dreamwork, with the dream being what happens in the group.

When an awakening in the dream groups stabilizes and configures in a way where a certain resonance is created, it is what I call an “in-phase dreaming circle,” which is actually an organism of a higher-dimension. Instead of there being, for example, ten seemingly separate selves who are imagining that they are alien to each other, imagine if these ten seemingly separate selves woke up and recognized that they are interconnected and parts of one another (reflections of each other, each other’s dream characters).

Furthermore, when these awakening in the dream groups are contemplated as a symbol that has precipitated into and out of the dreamfield, they are recognized to be what I call microcosmic fractals, reflecting a deeper process of awakening that is available both individually and collectively, as a planet. What is happening in the groups is then realized to be an evolutionary quantum leap of human consciousness that has crystallized into materialized form in this waking dream of ours.

332. Crouching Tiger - November 30, 2009 [Edit]

No. I don’t think so. The poem represents the most basic mistake we all make, without exception. It tends to become obvious when it elaborates a huge amount of machinery and reasoning and yes, theory to support it. It’s a hugely impressive, but flawed act of self-protection.

I feel that the need for this machinery is something the Fellowship does encourage. Much of it is ‘4th Way’, but now it’s gone well beyond that…

There are some personalities that can carry this machinery quite lightly, and it helps them adapt to Life. On the blog, Jomo is probably one of those.

But I doubt that you are. There are some who just have to fly right through the eye of the needle, and my belief is that you are one of them.

When we were considering working together, I felt it was important for you to get back in touch with the core of your experience in the Fellowship, without any other consideration of any kind. Just plainly and simply, to start speaking from there. It isn’t divisive to do that, it is a form of healing.

A few days ago, you wrote me to say that at present, you didn’t feel you were capable of that… but you might be in future. I can respect that, it is honest.

A little while afterwards, you seemed to have a change of mind. You began broadcasting our private conversations on your blog, and insisting that it was the right forum for any dialogue. Clearly you felt the theoretical/argumentative element is more important than anything else.

I don’t. I don’t feel it is good for you and I know it isn’t good for me! So when you start talking about the necessity of the theory and adding layer upon layer upon layer on your blog, to me you are just taking yourself further away from the heart of your experience. A form of self-numbing. While this is often necessary as a temporary measure to evacuate a strong influence like a cult, it is not as permanent an answer as the one you find by re-entering your own experience as definitely and as sincerely as possible.

My impression is that all of myself, Nigel and Dragon earnestly wish that for you – that healing, that returning sense of wholeness – and a fair few others on the Blog. But if you don’t wish it for yourself, none of it will stick.

333. Elena - November 30, 2009 [Edit]

Hi Crouching Tiger,

I appreciate your willingness to dialogue about it and the new tone. There are different issues and they are all connected. Writing a book is one and it would be lovely to get to that one day. Remembering life in the Fellowship second by second and the horror of it at the moment is not something I wish to do. It doesn’t help me.

There are aims to these blogs. In this one, the aim is to continue to explore what happened to us in the Fellowship cult and since it was born out of my being banned from the other one, it has had a lot to do with that. You seem to hold to the position that I was rightfully banned and should not question it. That position you have stands in the way for our working together because it will mark that work too. I am afraid of trusting and getting hurt again and if your position is that I was the only one at fault in the fofblog and that banning was a legitimate measure, you would apply similar conditions to our relationship that I could not submit to. My whole struggle and stand since I began to participate has been specifically about that. If we can discard each other from the community we’ve been working in without regard for our condition then we are not human enough to interact with each other. We are like the animals that throw members out when they get sick. Since I believe we are all pretty ill, who decides who to throw out becomes a question of power and it’s a sick few throwing other sick out. Basically that was the behavior common in the Fellowship cult and what repeated in the fofblog. With that I don’t mean to excuse my behavior as not having gotten to an extreme, I take responsibility for my excesses. What is even clearer now is that I was not banned for those excesses as much as for the ideology I represented which was that acting in every possible way against the Fellowship cult is legitimate action legally, socially, humanly and spiritually. What we’ve seen is that indeed, the fofblog is rooting in the position that they are not interested in acting for the closure of the Fellowship cult. Americans are unwilling to address the cult problem with serious action against them is basically what I’ve finally come to understand and THAT is why I was banned because I attacked them as fascists for condoning such organizations. As I’ve learnt and studied more about the problem, we can see that in Germany and France acting against cults has become a legal reality.

What we are really faced with is the fact that the theory I’ve been exposing about the fact that we are one human being and need to respond for each other, that we can legitimately fight against cults in courts, even in the United States are the THEORIES that you and all of you on the fofblog have been unwilling to address about my writings. As we move along it is obvious that these theories are not only mine but are what is moving the world forward in these issues. We are ripe for them. Not just me but human beings at the head of nations and movements.

It is important for me that that is acknowledged and recognized for what it is because shunning and banning me to impose the general attitude that “trying to close the Fellowship cult is FUTILE” is a treason to what is being exposed by the blogs. Crime is happening inside cults and all Ames and the invisible but very real leaders of the fofblog are saying is, we do not fight this beyond talking about it, leaving the victims as unprotected as has been their behavior since they left decades ago. I was one amongst the many.

What makes you think that these things don’t matter? Or that they in anyway separate me from who I am? That I have to concentrate my talent in a private sphere and not continue to confront this madness?

It is not that I don’t fully appreciate and feel gratitude for your interest in my writing a book and have repeatedly thank you for even thinking that I am talented enough for such enterprise. In relation to that specific question I could not be more grateful to you. It is that you are part and parcel of this play and your position in relation to my theories and banning from the fofblog is as opposite to me as if you’d been the moderator who took the decision. There was a gradual ganging up of people who I had questioned and won arguments against and when there were no arguments to win you banned me. I pushed it in the frustration and the injustice with my behavior but you pushed it in your ignoring and indifference. You all I mean, not just you. Consciously and unconsciously. And you were as willing to hurt someone who you could not submit just like any sicko in a cult or concentration camp or industry is willing to because he or she has the power.

Arguments count and yesterday I gave you very specific arguments in answer to yours that you are still unwilling to acknowledge. Why are you avoiding the precise points. Why can’t you acknowledge and follow the dialogue in the terms you posed them?

It is not about my winning, it is about leveling each other in an acknowledgement of legitimate reasoning. From there everything is possible.

I’m in a hurry and need to go and take my father to the doctor but thank you deeply for the dialogue.

334. nige - November 30, 2009 [Edit]

You are not the only one in a hurry, with little time to spare. Here I get Real Martial – aim between the eyes, and all that. I don’t care how sophisticated or literarily brilliant you blog on Public Square, you are, at core, a whimpering, spoilt little child, which the rest of us can see. Oomph, did that hurt? Meant to! Hey woman do you want to heal – it’s up to you and I would suggest you move from where you are DAMN QUICK!

The Paul Levy copy and paste from ‘Awaken the Mind’ is below and, powerfully, my pre-Christmas gift to you. READ AS MANY TIMES AS YOU NEED AND MAKE IT WORK FOR YOU! NO ARGUMENTS, PLEASE!…..

“Much to his astonishment, C. G. Jung discovered that the ancient art of alchemy was describing, in symbolic language, the journey that all of us must take towards embodying our own intrinsic wholeness, what he called the process of “individuation.” The alchemists, over the course of centuries, had generated a wide range of symbolic images which directly corresponded to the anatomy of the unconscious which Jung had been mapping through his painstaking work with thousands of patients. Jung, in illuminating a psychology of the unconscious, can himself be considered a modern-day alchemist…The alchemists had little or nothing to contribute to the field of chemistry, least of all the secret of gold-making. Only our overly one-sided, rational and intellectualized age could miss the point so entirely and see in alchemy nothing but an abortive attempt at chemistry. On the contrary, to the alchemists, chemistry represented a degradation and a “Fall,” because it meant the secularization and commercialization of a sacred science. Jung makes the point, “The alchemical operations were real, only this reality was not physical but psychological. Alchemy represents the projection of a drama both cosmic and spiritual in laboratory terms. The opus magnum [“great work”] had two aims: the rescue of the human soul, and the salvation of the cosmos.” The alchemists were dreaming big…

The Light of Darkness The art of alchemy itself is an expression that hidden in the darkness is light. The alchemists, Jung says, “discover that in the very darkness of nature a light is hidden, a little spark without which the darkness would not be darkness…the lumen naturae is the light of the darkness itself, which illuminates its own darkness, and this light the darkness comprehends” In contrast to a light that, as the Bible says, “shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not,” the lumen naturae, the light of lights, is a light that the darkness intimately recognizes as its own nature. The lumen naturae is the luminosity within the darkness recognizing itself as it illumines its own darkness…

We Are All Shamans-in-Training In 1981 I spontaneously went into such an ecstatic state that I was hospitalized by what I call the “anti-bliss patrol.” The authorities had become alerted because I was simply unable to restrain my enthusiasm at the “good news” that was beginning to reveal itself to me about the nature of reality.

The Artist as Healer of the World The artist allows themselves to get “dreamed up” by the field to become the “medium” through which the spirit of the age moves and inspires them to creatively express itself. Speaking about this process, Jung said, “At such moments we are no longer individuals, but the race; the voice of all mankind resounds in us.”

The Wounded Healer, Part I An encounter with something greater than our limited ego, what Jung calls the Self, is always a wounding experience for the ego. The event of our wounding is initiatory, as our wounding originated in and potentially introduces us to “something greater than ourselves.”

The Wounded Healer, Part II Any one of us accessing the healing power hidden in our wound could be, in Jung’s words, “the makeweight that tips the scales,” precipitating an evolutionary quantum leap in human consciousness, which literally can change everything.

The War on Consciousness We are truly in a war. It is not the war we imagine we are in, which is the way our true adversaries want it. It is not a foreign war against a foreign enemy. It is a war on consciousness, a war on our own minds.”

335. Elena - December 1, 2009 [Edit]

Hi Crouching Tiger, I appreciate the opportunity to deepen our understanding of the subject.

332. Crouching Tiger – No. I don’t think so. The poem represents the most basic mistake we all make, without exception. It tends to become obvious when it elaborates a huge amount of machinery and reasoning and yes, theory to support it. It’s a hugely impressive, but flawed act of self-protection.

Elena: So this poem, in this situation and in this conversation is not addressed to me or about me? We all make mistakes but what you’re saying is that I am making mistakes, isn’t it? You’re still unwilling to acknowledge that anyone else made any mistakes in the fofblog. And if I defend myself and elaborate many things for that defense then it simply affirms your premise that I am mistaken!

Don’t you find Daily Cardiac is not the only expert here? We are all wonderful at adapting the theory to our position? ——–

I feel that the need for this machinery is something the Fellowship does encourage. Much of it is ‘4th Way’, but now it’s gone well beyond that…

Elena: you mean my references to other authors like Paul Levy or Jung is just useless machinery? Why wouldn’t we? Why stay only with the fourth way that has been questioned deeply by how it was used by the Fellowship and still you know very well that I am probably the only one together with you that has consistently stood by the idea that it wasn’t the System that failed but the Fellowship. When I find Levy and Jung simply use different names for the same things it is wonderful! What is wrong with it in your mind?———

There are some personalities that can carry this machinery quite lightly, and it helps them adapt to Life. On the blog, Jomo is probably one of those.

But I doubt that you are. There are some who just have to fly right through the eye of the needle, and my belief is that you are one of them.

Elena: You mean how we got to use something like the System. After the leaving the Fellowship I couldn’t even trust my own name, let alone the System. You leave your Cult after seventeen years and your husband and everything on which you stood. What makes you think that I was in a state of carrying anything lightly? I repeatedly stated that I wasn’t working with the System. I was and have been a wreck going up and down in extreme states. At least that has been obvious. But that was true all along in the past two years and no one banned me until I started calling people fascists for being unwilling and unable to take a more serious stand against cults.

We agree about the fact that conveying the need to stand against cults is not going to have any success if one screams FASCISTS to people who don’t do it. We agree that I have been screaming aggressively. What we won’t agree with is that that justified being banned indefinitely. We do not realize how much harm we do on people when we take a measure such as that one. You all wanted to punish me for being who I am not because I behaved badly. Bruce is still willing to stigmatize me and even use Robert to justify himself. That’s not shocking enough for anyone in there that you can’t say anything about it? You just continue to participate in silence allowing for these things to reaffirm themselves? Our friction is real. We hurt each other and taste each other’s wounds. I’m willing to live with that without keeping silent about it. Jomo, like everyone on the fofblog is an amazingly fine character. WE ALL ARE. The problem is not how amazing we are, but how poorly we acknowledge each other’s wonder. You place me next to Jomo to compare me? Why would you ever do that! You think he’s better than me or anyone else? That’s madness! Jomo is good at some things and not nearly as good in others just like the rest of us. He is extremely fine in diplomacy but even he made fun of me with groups of men. And he is good with laws but that in which he is good is his greatest weakness? You would not see him picketing in a public square in the whole of his life probably because he has limited the power of the human being to a bunch of books with laws written down on them and like most Americans in that poor blog, he thinks that they cannot change history just by simply standing in the public space and saying “WE WILL NOT PUT UP WITH THIS SHIT BECAUSE IT IS CRIMINAL”. You think there is a wonder in using law to perpetuate crime forgetting that above the laws are human beings? That WE make and change the laws when necessary? That is your model of using the machinery lightly? The problem with all of you men who were in the Fellowship is that you’ve forgotten what being men is about. You are convinced that being men is putting women down with no matter what sophistry and allow them to get put down by a narcissistic misogynous sociopath from whom you are willing to get fucked in the meantime intellectually and emotionally if not sexually. THAT is what you call beating people down with literary sticks? These are words Crouching Tiger but what they are describing is what we women have lived in the Fellowship for four decades and what we’ve been living for centuries in the patriarchal societies we’ve modeled our world with. THAT HAS TO CHANGE if we are ever to become decent and loving human beings with each other. That pattern is as SICK for the men as for the women. We are one and we are equals. ————–

A few days ago, you wrote me to say that at present, you didn’t feel you were capable of that… but you might be in future. I can respect that, it is honest.

Elena: What is not honest about the rest? Why do you imply there is dishonesty in other areas? I have nothing against your willingness to write a book with me. I am honored by the simple mention of that possibility. That is one aspect of our communication and a different one is what we can talk about and understand about the Fellowship in public. For me they are different things. The public realm in itself puts us in a different STATE. It implies that we are willing to confront our selves in the light of many eyes. If we are willing to play fair, it leads us out of our individual limitations only as long as we don’t fall back into mass behavior and get rid of those who question it which is what happened in the fofblog.

When I invite you to the Public Square to talk about the Fellowship it is not necessarily about the book, it is about us and things we’ve shared. If you value nothing of what I research and put in these pages, that does make me question why you would ever wish to write a book with me. Just because I write well?——–

Elena: broadcasting only what I think relates to the fofcult or fofblog in relation to me. I am not exposing you, I am talking in public with you about public problems such as cults, communities and human behavior. Why do you perceive that as numbing. I am everything but numbed. If I were a little less sensitive it would be quite helpful.

While this is often necessary as a temporary measure to evacuate a strong influence like a cult, it is not as permanent an answer as the one you find by re-entering your own experience as definitely and as sincerely as possible.

Elena: Again, what makes you use the word sincere? What makes you think I am not sincere if I try to understand the bigger picture? What is insincere about that?

You are all my friends and friendship is not a given. We struggle with each other because we are alive and far from what we can be. Nigel probably just saved my life together with Dragon and I am not just saying that. Being banned was THAT dangerous. How much more grateful can I be with them? They inspire me to write poems. And still, if Nigel misinterprets me and states that I am after revenge and I call him silly for it and he then turns against me and says I am ‘beating people down with literary sticks’ and he is leaving, and then tells me not to piss on myself, then he can go if he wants. And nothing is more painful to me than when people leave or threaten me with leaving which he did but I am so used to it that I become stronger each time. My mother left and died. People die in my heart when they leave or threaten me with leaving, I don’t understand that separation. If he can’t be bothered to read me carefully and acknowledge what I am really saying and is willing to corrupt me saying I wish revenge, what friendship do we really have. These things matter. They might not matter to you but they matter to me. The sense of wholeness comes not from pretending we divide into pieces or that we only have time for this side of our selves and not the others. Every contract people sign with each other should be signed publicly so that the intentions are clear. With the internet that is now very easy. That will come! Transparency is necessary. You have no idea how afraid I am of anything that is not public! Like the Fellowship, like marriage, like love, like sex. Everything happened to us because we accepted to hide behind the public eye under the spell of esotericism. And in the Public Square is an archetype of our unity as human beings. I am for that! The abhorrent sex practices people indulge in are filled with shame and hiding. When we stop being ashamed of who we are and can love each other’s every side, no one will develop sick sexual practices and make altars like Cults to live them out. We are essentially good people without anything to hide.

336. Elena - December 1, 2009 [Edit]

Hi Nigel,

We posted at the same time almost. Glad to see you old pal! One day we’ll celebrate like real people!!

Thanks for the spoilt and all that but specially thanks for being here! I just loved the “anti-bliss patrol”! He’s good isn’t he?

My father, who I adore, taught me to scream to defend my self from him. My mother remained silent.

337. Elena - December 1, 2009 [Edit]

For tiger

If it weren’t love I would not talk or scream or weep

Allow me to weep scream talk and love for you

(We can’t just BEEEEE! like in the Fellowship!!!)

338. Elena - December 1, 2009 [Edit]

I do not bring your poems to the doorstep so that you’re not afraid of my nesting in your heart

When you come to the Public Square white doves will fly out to greet you The lion statues will turn their heads and growl and the little children will laugh their most joyful delight! The Sun will sit by your side and the moon will cuddle in your lap.

339. Crouching Tiger - December 1, 2009 [Edit]

Rather than going around in the same old circles one more time, it might be better to just flag up some basic facts:

* ACTION. You called for action against the fellowship, and give it as your reason for being banned from the blog. So, what have you done in the several months since leaving? Started an action group or gone to the legislature? You’ve started another blog, one with considerably less punch than the original because it has a far smaller audience, and no ‘live’ debate with an actual fellowship member. Fact.

* ACTION [2]. I offered you a chance to write about your experiences in the fellowship with a view to getting published. Negative publicity through books is a powerful weapon in the modern world. You refused. Fact.

* ATTITUDE. Despite your intermittent heartfelt pleas for friendship and dialogue, you have shown that it is extremely hard for you not to bite and claw at your friends, to the point where you drive them away. Fact.

* FICTION. You have reached the point in recent posts where you have turned me into an enemy.who is no different from those that asked for you to be banned on the Blog. This is the opposite of the truth. I defended you on the blog and opposed your banning. This is a fact.

* TIME. You ask for all of your [usually very long] posts to be considered in every detail by other posters. I would estimate it would take at least 3-4 hours every day to disentangle your thinking and respond to it as you seem to want. Regardless of whether it’s a worthwhile effort, who with a busy working/family life do you think has the time to do this?

I hope this provides a bit of perspective

340. Crouching Tiger - December 1, 2009 [Edit]

The little box.

The little box grows her first teeth And her little length grows Her little width her little emptiness And everything she has

The little box grows and grows And now inside her is the cupboard That she was in before

And she grows and grows and grows And now inside her is the room And the house and the town and the land And the world she was in before

The little box remembers her childhood And by most great yearning Becomes a little box again

Now inside the little box Is the whole world tiny small It’s easy to put in your pocket Easy to steal easy to lose

Take care of the small box

341. ton - December 1, 2009 [Edit]

crouching tiger, thanks for working with elena and for your intention to help another human being… without a doubt she needs a certain kind of help (we all need help of one sort or another). “blogging” may be a place to start but my sense in regard to elena’s healing process is that other venues are called for as well… and of course time, lots and lots of time. (not that i hold myself up as any kind of model but i’ve gone through many years of various types of therapy in coming to some terms with my “inner demons”). elena’s wounds are relatively “fresh” and deep, it takes lots of time for protective skin to grow back over the wounds… and even with that i think it is an experience one never fully “recovers” from…. it’s more a matter of learning from the experience and an ongoing adaptation of the inner world to living. a year or two back, after some interaction with elena on the blog i wrote to her: “i wouldn’t touch (her chosen topic) with a ten foot pole….” of course that immediately put me on the enemy list…. and i know my response might have sounded cold and “compassionless” but it came from a place of knowing my limitations in relation to what elena “requires.” good luck and all the best to you all

342. Elena - December 1, 2009 [Edit]

Hi Crouching Tiger, Thank you for being here. Rather than going around in the same old circles one more time, it might be better to just flag up some basic facts: * ACTION. You called for action against the fellowship, and give it as your reason for being banned from the blog. So, what have you done in the several months since leaving? Started an action group or gone to the legislature? You’ve started another blog, one with considerably less punch than the original because it has a far smaller audience, and no ‘live’ debate with an actual fellowship member. Fact.

1. I’ve been trying to overcome the shame of having been banned, trying to get a grip on extreme ups and downs and resolving my self with the help of a few while at the same time, researching about cults in the world and what’s been happening in other countries and how they are dealing with it and researching on human behavior trying to understand what happened to us. The texts by Allan Didier on how France is dealing with the problem are very much to the point, so are Paul Levy’s texts and for you that is just theorizing without any value. Fact.

2. I am extremely grateful for your offer and hope we get there some day but I am also very glad that we are talking and getting to know each other better before we take that step. Wasn’t the problem in the Fellowship precisely that we assumed everything was all right? That we took everything for granted? If you consider me dishonest and insincere, and you haven’t answered why you speak in those terms, why would you work with me? That is one aspect in relation to the book the other is that you wish me to relive my experiences in the Fellowship in such a detail and vividness that I don’t yet feel I can do it. For most of you the Fellowship is a cult, for me it is concentration camp. I was there long enough, why would I wish to re-live it before I even fully understand how it happened?

3. If clawing and biting my friends is not agreeing with them and questioning them then you’re right. I just gave up a husband because I did not agree with him and find him questionable. I think friendship grows when we get to know each other and friction is part of the binding. When we can overcome the questioning and know that beyond the form there is integrity, we choose to remain friends.

* FICTION. You have reached the point in recent posts where you have turned me into an enemy who is no different from those that asked for you to be banned on the Blog. This is the opposite of the truth. I defended you on the blog and opposed your banning. This is a fact.

4. For me we are dialoguing. You’re not my enemy for questioning you. You give me your points and I answer them with precision trying to be clear and dissolve confusion but you avoid my points reaffirming my doubts. You play with me emotionally and tell me you’re going to stay until I come to my senses and then sarcastically ask me if you can leave now. You play with my emotions and threaten to leave and that puts me in a very defensive-aggressive position. We are always threatening each other with leaving each other or actually leaving each other. Banning each other. Ignoring each other. And I’m an expert at that too. If we can’t even talk why insist.

5. Time is the only thing we can give each other: everything else comes with it. In the time we give each other is our presence. If we don’t have time for each other’s presence we don’t have time. No one has the obligation to be with me but if you choose to be with me, be with me. You are very efficient with your answers and what you avoid. If you didn’t avoid my questions you would have time for them. Like comparing me with Jomo as if he were better than me and you were given me a model to follow without the slightest regard for his situation and mine. It’s so easy to put everyone in the same stick without considering anyone. –

I hope this provides a bit of perspective

Unfortunately your poem just puts me back in the same old box you’d like me to fit in.

Yes, I hope we can dialogue and not give up on each other again. That is the exception to the rule if we don’t just sign up for a club. I wish you well.

343. Elena - December 1, 2009 [Edit]

Hi Ton,

Don’t you find it strange that you being one of the most sensitive men in the fofblog still find the time to come to this blog to talk with Crouching Tiger and not me? We know by each other’s posts that we essentially agree about a great many things but you never address what we agree on and instead reinforce your unwillingness to talk to me. You think I need ten different therapies to put me back in the mold that you would be willing to talk to but are unable to understand that what I demand, not require, is equality. That you talk to me not as an inferior to you, which is what you imply by stating that I am sick and need therapy, but as a human being that you can relate to in no matter what condition I might be.

Have you any idea how offensive your post is?

So when you see someone sick and begging in the street while you walk with your wife, do you give her the money so that she gives it to the sick person because you are unwilling to do so because according to you she is sick? That is human to you?

Oh Ton, men have gotten too used to think that women are sick when we no longer adapt to the status quo that states that we behave submissively to your rule. Here we are talking about very specific things and all you can do is repeat the label that I am sick and talk to each other without addressing me or the issues and disregard completely what I’ve been working on. The saddest thing is that we’re already friends, we’ve been following each other’s trail for too long to not be. Bad friends if you like but friends still or at least people who care for each other.

Fortunately I know I am sick in so many an area but I also know you are both as sick in many others and that still has the potential of making us friends and healing each other when we at least acknowledge our mutual illnesses as much as our human integrity. In the meantime I wish to thank you and congratulate you for the posts you’re placing in the fofblog. They are heading out of the club mentality and that is Oh so very dangerous but exciting!

344. Crouching Tiger - December 1, 2009 [Edit]

Elena.

1. ACTION. Thanks for the reply, but you did complain vehemently about the blog’s perceived inaction, and said you were ready for it yourslelf.

2. ACTION [2]. I consider you to be someone with the potential to be honest, someone with moments of honesty like the rest of us. Returning to your experience in the fellowship objectively – not reliving it – is a part of honesty.

Pretending that you are ‘doing’ something no-one else is willing to undertake, when in fact you’re not, is dishonest. You simply have to give up this idea that somehow you are dealing more honestly, deeply and clearly with all the fellowship paraphernalia than everyone else.

3. ATTITUDE. Friction is fine, but there is a limit. Try to listen when people tell you you’ve crossed over the line. You may have learned screaming with your father but we are not your father. We are volunteers.

4. FICTION. Telling a blatant lie is not part of dialogue, even if there is an emotional reason for it. My true position here is that I am balancing at the edge, much like Nigel. For the time being I feel I’m needed here, but how long it will last I can’t say.

5. TIME. Be rational. My responses are economic because that is the way I am. I feel there are times when you questions can be answered, and times when they can’t. I try to respect both.

The poem is intended for all [including me], but it does apply to you. But I would say that tone is little more than that of a gentle warning, nothing more.

Thanks for the encouragement Ton, nice to see someone else looking in.

345. ton - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

elena, to answer your question, yes i did have the idea that you would find my post offensive. elena, i’m going to be as straightforward and clear as i think i need to be — you have problems. it may or may not have to do with your gender, but that’s something you’re projecting onto my intentions and your gender is not the point i’m getting at, the point is that you have problems. can you admit to that? i’m sure you are “sane” enough that you will. now, will you admit that you don’t see what your problems are? that may be more difficult.

i freely admit, i have have problems, hell everyone has problems, i freely admit it because i feel no shame in that aspect of my human experience. my note to crouching tiger came out of my own personal experiences, that’s my frame of reference. no i don’t expect anyone to follow my example or necessarily to listen to my advice, or “conform” to my ideas about how to proceed in their own very personal process.

because of your reactive nature, what may have been lost on you when you read my note to ct was this: that “healing” is a relative notion, that it is probably possible to “heal” to some degree in private and on your own terms (through “blogging” or self-reflection for example)… but the main point of my note to ct which was more or less only obliquely implied, is that in admitting you have a problem and seeking professional help there is no shame. that begins with admitting you need help, then finding a good therapist and commiting to the process.

again speaking from my own experience with many different therapies and therapists over the course of many years, bodywork combined with a talk therapy for me is most effective. there is true and real inner work that can happen if the right therapy/therapist is found, healing partly is a reflective process, solitary/private/personal reflection is one aspect and necessary, but in my experience, healing requires many things, one of which is for someone else who is perceptive enough to hold a mirror up, and strong enough to truthfully reflect back what they see while at the same time being a source of support. there is no shame in it…. think of it as an adventure… (you might look at work by stansilav grof for starters). i wish you well

346. nige - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Dearest Elena,

I skipped all the ‘ton’ and ‘crouching tiger’ interchange stuff. It doesn’t interest me and certainly it may be something for you and you alone to deal with. The point is, this is so much Kairos Time. Do you know, and I certainly reccognised it, that you did a mental-skip from frenzy to certitude with my Personality Shaking Shock. That is how close psychotic energy is from the GodHood. For me, the mind can be enemy or friend, but must serve my Human Aim of Warrior Eternal Vigilance. The Who I Am must serve the great Human Mystery Certainty of Self in Service Itself. I lost the poem that was trying to make itself as I mingled joyfully with the Exeter people on the way home tonight. Something about Christhood in the Deepest Darkness of Human Opportunity. Elena, love, you do not know how close you are to yourself. So much pain for so much gain…..Nigel.

347. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Hi Crouching Tiger,

1. The fofblog is clearly pointing in the direction that they cannot conceive of anything else besides talk about the Fellowship which is what Ames, Bruce, Old fof did when they left. What was right for them then is not necessarily right for anyone of us today. I think they are just trying to justify that position but it’s a sad position. Today that same response from those of us who left recently, who know how much worse it has become, is absurd.

It’s a social problem that needs social solutions. It’s inconceivable in the United States by the Americans on the blog?, alright, that is a fact that needs to be acknowledged and worked with. One person can do little but I have picketed and done what I could and will continue to do what I can. Researching more deeply is part of it.

2. My position is different to the fofblog. Always has been. Had I been able to take that and leave without trying to convey the differences with desperation I wouldn’t have hurt myself so badly but there is nothing dishonest about it. Had I not needed that community to reference myself after leaving and found another place to expose my horror, I would have been better off. I don’t think the problem is one of honesty. I am not pretending: my position is and has been different. I believe things can be achieved socially when one acts socially. I think picketing helps. I think public awareness changes when there is public action. I picketed because it made sense. No one else is picketing. If I were in the States I would do it again simply for those people inside that need reminding that not all of us agree with what is happening inside. I feel that I would have been helped enormously if those who had left had done it while I was there. That’s all. What is dishonest about knowing or stating that? Our positions are different for very specific reasons and I don’t know why you find it so difficult to acknowledge those reasons. What is absolutely wrong about me is that I’ve been screaming those reasons out instead of formulating them elegantly and with love or a great knowledge. I feel them intuitively but I don’t have them all reasoned out and formulated for anyone’s information. I wasn’t in a condition to do so elegantly and with love but that doesn’t make the reasons any less valid. As time passes and I recover, it is clear that all those things can be fought without screaming. Those are substantial differences. And I do pretend that I am proposing something no one else connected to the Fellowship is willing to even acknowledge. The intuition I have that the public-social sphere is a whole realm we are beginning to discover and that it has amazing potential is not something I’ve heard or seen done before. It is precisely in those theories that you are unwilling to look at or acknowledge that I am also proposing things that are not being even thought about in the fofblog or were accepted. They were simply called upon as my Joan of Arc pretenses. I have been talking a great deal in the same vein that Paul Levy is talking but I’ve been doing it in a wounded condition that hasn’t helped. Anyone willing can see through that. It is a difficult realm to work with but a precious one. Our inconsistencies in public are so much more obvious but there is something very pure about it as if we couldn’t lie and hold the lie. We are not bound by our family’s status quo. Just the fact that we are so afraid of being exposed in public is interesting. There is tremendous fear of that and of course very difficult to handle but if we can trust that no matter how much we expose each other’s inconsistencies we are beautiful people that have nothing that needs hiding, then we can explore our selves, then we can feel human about it. And also, as long as we understand that we are not going to ban each other because we say our truth, it already establishes a reassurance that the whole process is an embracing one. We need to take the leaves of shame off our bodies.

If you put it in those terms, I am afraid I cannot but admit that I am doing something different not only in relation to what needs to be done with the Fellowship cult but what can be done when working together on a blog. Just like in the Fellowship cult, members are in denial about how they are hurting others, in the fofblog, members are in denial about what banning someone implies or what can be done against the Fellowship. There is no sense of community in that blog but a club of people with essential affinities without an aim or work. Questionable things are not questioned: that’s a club. Thinking things are only wrong in relation to the fofcult and nothing wrong in relation to the fofblog is a club very similar to the fofcult. At the same time, I appreciate the effort a few of you are still making to at least bring information that might deepen the participant’s understanding of what happened to us in the Fellowship cult.

3. ATTITUDE. One of the wonderful things about public life and the struggle we’ve been through in the past three years is realizing how my parents conditioned my behavior. They are not excuses! I have definite attitudes towards men and women in this public sphere that are the perfect reflection of how my parents conditioned me to feel about my self and when we know that about each other then we can help each other better but beyond that, understanding more precisely how our childhood connects to our adulthood is a whole new world we have not trodden. Reich took a gigantic step towards that understanding in Mass psychology of Fascism but we can go much further. When you said earlier that it’s all defending myself it’s true and I shared the idea of my father thinking about that. Basically it was so violent when I was a child that I scream before anyone else can to avoid a tragedy but end up creating the tragedy on my self!! I’m working on these things. I would appreciate it if you don’t try to use this information against me when you dislike me, which is very common in friends that turn against each other. We all have similar things and there’s nothing “wrong” with them, that was the life we were given to move forward a generation.

You are men. You are as conditioned by your fathers as I am and as conditioned by the authoritarian patriarchal society we are in as I am. You behave towards me under those conditionings and expect me to behave towards you conditioned by those structures. We play “mothers” and “fathers” to each other and I think we need to see that, we need to free our selves from those conditionings so that we can play from our own self and not just re-enact our parent’s shortcomings.

Almost every structure was disfigured by the fofcult so it’s been difficult to stand anywhere. It is as if, without the System to hold on to when I left, I was put back into the Elena mode previous to the System. I don’t think any psychoanalyst could have helped me understand these relationships as clearly as participating in these blogs has. It’s THE WORK, LIVE! And it’s complex but life is complex and that is part of what makes it so interesting. When you say you are a volunteer, wonderful! We volunteer time in each other’s lives because we care for each other. I think trying to understand each other, trying to overcome those tremendous conditionings that we have from our particular family, culture and then from our communal western programming is WORK. Exposing each other is wonderful! Each one of us is strong in different areas and knowing that we can help each other.

Thanks for sharing! Sorry if it’s again a little long but maybe now we can move on into shorter pieces. I will try!

P.S. Can you talk to me? Without bullets as in action 1,2,3? FACTS It feels a little strict and unloving unlike your last private letter which was very much so! At the same time it makes things easier and clearer to reason out. Maybe we can combine the two?

348. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Very Dear Nigel, I am understanding there was something positive about our interchange and I am so glad. That is how I feel about the interchange with Crouching Tiger and Ton. They too are wonderful people worth listening to.

349. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Hi Ton,

Do you have any idea how wonderful it is when you address me directly?

When you do that a whole world heals.

I appreciate your making an effort to come here only to tell me that I am sick. Have you been coming here for two or three months only waiting for the opportunity to say that?

350. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Hi Elena.

1 & 2. You left the blog complaining of its inaction. That it wasn’t prepared to do something about the vices it perceived in the fellowship.

So I still have the impression that you want to do something yourself, other than ‘researching [ever] more deeply’. What is that action? When will it happen?

Of course, if the timescale is indefinite and there are other problems still to be solved, then the time for action has not actually arrived, has it?

2. “I don’t think the problem is one of honesty. I am not pretending: my position is and has been different. I believe things can be achieved socially when one acts socially.”

“The intuition I have that the public-social sphere is a whole realm we are beginning to discover and that it has amazing potential is not something I’ve heard or seen done before.”

I think this is getting near to the root of the problem. If you really want to achieve something in a social context – in other words as a group – then the aim has to be collective, agreed-upon. You have to feel part of a group with a common aim

If we look at the facts, something always ‘happens’ that seems to prevent you being part of such a group, or even of forming such a group. Even here, with only a few more-or-less friendly faces to talk to, you are struggling to find common ground.

So what I mean by dishonesty is a refusal to recognise how something personal is blocking the way to that big social aim. Agreeing to write a book is agreeing to become social [lots of readers]. Agreeing with others on a forum allows a bigger social energy to be released. But you have to find a way to agree first, within yourself.

3. See above. When you learn to love your parents, shortcomings and all, you’ll be free of their influence.

351. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Something to add:

When you’re talking about a social context, people like to believe in someone in whom they can see a point of unity. In any group endeavour. Someone in whom the arguments exist, but the unity remains uppermost.

Many politicians have become expert at impersonating this unity while still remaining liars at heart. But someone like Gandhi, for example, was able to provide a point of unity for warring creeds without [to the best of my knowledge] lying. So he became a social force of great power.

If however the arguments prevail and there is no sense of an underlying ability to marry different viewpoints, that social force cannot be generated.

What I’m saying in this context is that by dismissing everyone on the blog, or constantly contesting with myself, or Ton or Nigel, you cannot become a social force, or a force for larger change. No-one can agree to act with you because, at least for the time being, the head says ‘Argue’ rather than ‘Unify’ or ‘Marry’.

352. dragon - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

A group created to realize imaginations of authority of their leaders or leading groups we call a sect. Authority is created and preserved by those “leaders” through mental programming which cause a typical kind of dependence. Criterion of criticism of a sect is the real structure of authority and the systematic inset of methods of mental programming and brain-washing. Criterion of it are the relations between leaders and members of those groups. The typical kind of dependence between leaders and members we call “sect-relation”.

from: http://www.religio.de/sekdef.html

Elena,

looking at your long lasting sect-relation (and I feel for myself you are still in) and its reappraising, I wonder why you resist to write on your own.

Writing on a blog without a clear line may be helpful in one way but it should be the free section, and it should take so round about ten minutes per day.

What you need in my humble opinion is the daily duty to write step by step about YOUR cult experience. This is a work that must be done without the helping hand of your friends because it is your part, your way to YOUR very own inner healing/freedom.

It is not to compare with the state of the lonesomeness of a abandoned child because your friends are really there and they will not refuse to read your lines and to answer within the bounds of their possibility.

I wonder also if you try to insist that every relationship must be in a state of a your imagination of friction. The possibilities of your fellow men to endure that friction may be very different from yours. Friction causes heat and the point is violent friction causes too much of something else. The relationships with friends and family members are stable if we give voluntarily without expecting praise.

There should be a lightness and a flow for both partners. It is joy. It is laughing without too much association of ideas resulting from the darkest input of a cult leader.

You may warn of cults, the FoF, you may write many, many articles for your blog, you may be meantime in a hurry (!!!) to care about your father, etc.…(is this your goal in life? sure?), but you seem to stick to the darkness. It is time to write about your story, you need it for sure.

I wonder if you hold interior monologues in an endless loop and that is an obstacle (IMHO/or imho).

By the way, my warmly regards to Nigel, Crouching Tiger, Ton and all the others coming along to both blogs, life is too short to embrace or to hold on tight to the darkness.

353. ton - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

elena, i never called you “sick.” that is your word, it reflects at once self-pity and indignation; you seem to take offense that another human being would “dare” suggest that you need help, that means professional help, something beyond what this blogging offers you. i did not suggest you need help to “stigmatize” you, like i said there is no shame in seeking and finding professional help. i did not suggest it to insult you, although of course you are free to interpret it as an insult, that way you can add to the “account book” and keep me on your enemy list. in needing help you are not alone, i’ve intimated somewhat my own journey in that regard…. maybe you should ask nigel about it… now i’ll leave you two love birds alone to carry on with whatever it is you were doing before i “interrupted” you. godspeed

354. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Hi Ton, Dragon and Crouching Tiger,

When you say I have problems you do mean that I am sick. I agree with you, I’ve been saying it myself all along. What surprises me is that that is all you have to say. That there is absolutely nothing else your worth addressing. That and the fact that you intentionally write to Crouching Tiger knowing how it’s offensive what you’re going to say feels like it is an stigmatizing.

No one addresses my so called theory but people continue to read the other blog I’ve written even to this day. If there is nothing of value why are people reading? If there is anything of value, why can’t you share it?

Thank you Dragon and Crouching Tiger. So very sorry that all you see is darkness Dragon just as I thought there was beginning to be some light. And Crouching Tiger, well yes, it seems obvious that I’m a perfect failure!

When I get therapy and am well, it’ll be a pleasure to share with you all again. You do have the freedom not to come here. Why would you ever when there is nothing of value that you can address? Sharing what is of value is not praise but dialogue but of course, if what you find is darkness, you can’t do either one.

Thank you for being so honest and clear. I will try to do what you say.

355. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Elena.

I think we all want you to get to where you yourself want to be… But it’s become obvious that all we can do is offer our support in whatever form that takes. At present, it clearly does not take the form of the dialogue as you conceive it.

The situation is by no means all black, it is a mixture. You’ve set lofty aims for both yourself and the rest of us, but like any journey it only begins with small steps.

Take whatever first step is now necessary.

I am sure we will all continue to support you, if and when you need our help.

356. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

There’s a big void in what you are posing which lies mainly in the fact that you are unwilling to address what I am asking.

When you see only darkness how objective are you?

357. dragon - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Elena, if someone tries to speak to you and you decide for yourself to turn it around and to label this attempt with the word „sick“, it is your soul that tries to find a way out of the FoF again and again.

But I think you need now professional help to come to terms with the past concerning the FoF. The blog and the mails are not enough because they can’t replace the professional work and help that you seemingly need.

Your replies reflect once more your inner exertion. It is like an internal cramp of your soul to repeat endlessly the FoF darkness . Light is to overcome it, live is to find positive energy.

Why are your friends and visitors here? I think they worry about you and they try to help you. That’s all and that’s a lot.

I read the words “worth”, “value”, “I’m a perfect failure”… What is your soul expressing with those words? Is it: “ Please, let me be with you, let me in, I want to be worth to you all?” Is it: “ I struggled for so long to have something that is “perfect” but now I see that was a great failure, to try to become a perfectionist? Elena, life and friends don’t care about perfection because we will never reach it. And stigmatizing? What is that a wish for? Stigmata are something very special and neither Crouching Tiger, nor Ton are stigmatizing you. That’s only your feeling and that’s so dark, darker than the darkest night of the year. Elena you are so full of energy, please use it well for the healing of your soul and be sure the light, the joy and all your friends are there, they are waiting for you.

You can find many posts here, they are only for you! Are you sure that this is an expression of “that that is all you have to say”?

It is your point of view that is filled with too much darkness of the past and it is time to realize that.

358. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Dragon,

—–If in three months the only thing someone has to say about everything that is presented here is “you have problems, get a therapist”, I don’t think they care about what I am or I am doing.—–

——-alright, you agree with Ton—

Your replies reflect once more your inner exertion. It is like an internal cramp of your soul to repeat endlessly the FoF darkness . Light is to overcome it, live is to find positive energy.

Why are your friends and visitors here? I think they worry about you and they try to help you. That’s all and that’s a lot.

——–Why do you come here when you see only darkness. Nothing of value that you can address. —–

I read the words “worth”, “value”, “I’m a perfect failure”… What is your soul expressing with those words? Is it: “ Please, let me be with you, let me in, I want to be worth to you all?”

——-NO, it is you and Crouching Tiger and Ton who are saying that there is nothing of value here for you to participate with because I argue and don’t agree. If I talk about my differences with the fofblog, you don’t acknowledge them, if I talk about specific points Daily Cardiac is making that need attention, you don’t hear them, if I offer readings from Paul Levy that enlighten the situation, they are too long for you, if I write about how similar patterns as those in cults are happening in life, they are worthless articles for you. If I research on Cults in France, you think I’m taking up space. You acknowledge nothing and then say you are supporting me because you write and tell me how sick I am.———

Dragon: Is it: “ I struggled for so long to have something that is “perfect” but now I see that was a great failure, to try to become a perfectionist?  Elena, life and friends don’t care about perfection because we will never reach it.  And stigmatizing? What is that a wish for? Stigmata are something very special and neither Crouching Tiger, nor Ton are stigmatizing you. That’s only your feeling and that’s so dark, darker than the darkest night of the year

——I struggle to communicate things I find of value and you don’t look at them and then tell me I’m wasting your time because you will not acknowledge them and find no value in them. Let me waste my time and don’t acknowledge them, I am not holding you here but if all you’ve got to say is the same thing they said in the fofblog, Why don’t you stay with them there and sing in chorus with Bruce that if they banned me in the fellowship cult it was because I am just fucking crazy. At least I fought even inside while the rest supported it.——-

Dragon: Elena you are so full of energy, please use it well for the healing of your soul and be sure the light, the joy and all your friends are there, they are waiting for you.

——–Don’t wait for me, I’m not coming.

You can find many posts here, they are only for you! Are you sure that this is an expression of “that that is all you have to say”?

———— THAT is all you have to say: “you’re sick go to a therapist, we don’t have time” Why did you ever bother to come here when it was already clear from the fofblog? I’ve recovered light years since then but you notice nothing because you don’t really care to look. I’m sick as hell but so are you.

Dragon: It is your point of view that is filled with too much darkness of the past and it is time to realize that.

Thank you Dragon, please don’t any of you waste your time here with so much darkness. I wish you all brightness.

359. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Elena, if we saw only darkness, we would not be here and we would not be your friends. We see someone struggling to emerge from a difficult time, still slashing at anyone who comes too close. But it will not always be like this. You will re-emerge from this underworld in your own time.

360. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

That is all you’ve been saying for the past ten posts crouching Tiger, that there is nothing for you to connect to and that you have the right to avoid addressing the points I ask to be addressed

” If I talk about my differences with the fofblog, you don’t acknowledge them, if I talk about specific points Daily Cardiac is making that need attention, you don’t hear them, if I offer readings from Paul Levy that enlighten the situation, they are too long for you, if I write about how similar patterns as those in cults are happening in life, they are worthless articles for you. If I research on Cults in France, you think I’m taking up space. You acknowledge nothing and then say you are supporting me because you write and tell me how sick I am.”

You have all your rights but so have I to buy into it or not and I don’t. Go support the other blog since you’re supporting the same positions here that you did there. You finally became kind in your mails and as soon as you went public all you have to say is there is nothing for you to connect with. What makes you change so drastically in seconds from private to public, but you don’t notice those things do you? I am the only one here that is being dissected right? because you’re all impeccable.

361. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Elena.

I will make you a proposal.

If you have a soundly-based, definite action in mind in respect of the fellowship, I will agree to be a partner in that action.

So what action do you have in mind?

362. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

1. Work on the concept of division of state and religion in America and most countries influenced by its position. Research and study why and how that can be overcome so that cults can be addressed from a civil as much as a religious point of view and get a law passed that will be specific about what civil laws cults cannot transgress.

Research how and why it’s been overcome in France and Germany that their example can be used for other countries

2. Picket against cults and the Fellowship cult wherever possible including American embassies in other countries. You in London I in Colombia at the same time! Just two people at the same time against the same cult! Make noise, make news. Picket a whole day and night or a whole week!! You tell me what you’re able and willing!

3. Research and understand the bigger picture of how and why cults are possible. Patterns in society that are conducive to that escape which is a dead end.

4. Work consistently on adding information that relates to the phenomenon. Talk about it and evaluate it together and check if it is sound or worthless and why

5. Put up a site that can handle all the information in specific archives and includes the blog, the arguing and the aim to work in an specific direction to fight cults everywhere. Allow for people from other cults to find a place to add their experience and knowledge.

6. Set up an area in such a site dedicated to aspects of healing

7. There are already many organizations working with these things. Research them and try to connect to their experiences. See what is possible in bigger groups with similar aims. Where studies on legislation are going and what are the advances and limitations.

8. Stand firm in the aim not to close cults but to reunite the need for civil rights to be upheld in every one of them. In fact, to understand that one’s right to freedom of speech is a spiritual quality inalienable from people and that cults that control and ban speech are acting against people’s spirit. Likewise with all other civil rights: freedom to communicate, to interact, to live, to decide, to participate. All those are not only civil rights, they are inherent to the spiritual life of people and when they are taken away from people they destroy people’s possibility of defending themselves from brain washing.

9. Organize everything we’ve been working on for three years and select areas that can be placed in their corresponding arena: the individual, the social, the national, the international, the laws, the psychology,….

10. Go slowly and with love but firmly recollecting material that can be used by people anywhere to understand the conflict and why it needs to be resolved against the abuses under the so called freedom of religion act.

11. Listen and respect each other no matter how wounded we seem to be and not pretend that because we are wounded and dark we are not saying anything of value.

12. Never give up on each other

363. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Well, I don’t know if it’s sound, but it certainly looks like a whole life’s work at first glance! I take it you want to make it your life’s work?

364. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

I have some ideas of my own.

1. A book composed of various ex-members testimonies of life in the fellowship. You could be one contributor.

2. A conference on the fellowship-as-cult, with people invited to give papers. The papers could then be written up for publication.

I think these might be practical, achievable aims that would not make the business ‘a life’s work’.

365. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

The division of state and religion is the most delicate separation that is affecting people today. It influences every other aspect of life. Social life must be coherent with our inner spiritual being. Laws cannot run in one direction against spirituality. They are each an aspect of the whole. Finding means of connecting those spheres seems to be the task for a generation conscious of the problem. Everyone’s life is work towards that unity no matter what they are expressing it in, so yes, this is a job worth many lives.

366. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

I hadn’t seen your last post before posting 365. Those ideas are good. Plan them out precisely and ask what you want from people. If I can, I’ll be happy to participate.

367. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

If it’s the second option; well perhaps you can help by doing a lot of the legwork, especially if it’s in the US –

1. suggesting a location

2. contacting/inviting prospective speakers etc…

3. administration of bookings and accommodation

4. Local event publicity

I could concentrate on preparing the talks for publication, contacting publishers and getting deals in place etc..

Just an idea.

368. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

I don’t live in the USA but I am sure Ames would be delighted to work with you in these things. I fully encourage you to go ahead with them. Anything that works for you against the FOF cult is supported by me.

369. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

How about the other idea of contributing a chapter or two to a book?

370. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Sure, get it going and let me know when and what you would like me to write about.

371. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

As far as I can understand you, the main areas you would emphasise are

1. Research and study, and connection to other existing cult websites.

2. Civil rights for cult members – presumably you would need to work closely with a legal professional here.

3. Protest – picketing and other anti-cult demonstrations.

Of the three, the research and study still sounds like by far the biggest area of concentration. Would that be right?

372. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

370. Again, why not be more active, and contact people who might be willing to contribute? You probably know more ex-members than I do, and my impression was that you wanted to be a driving force in such activity?

373. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

371 Yes, I don’t think one could propose a law to be passed without rigorous research.

372 I don’t have friends and the few I had I just did away with. I am not interested in being a leader. We share an ideal and we all work to actualize it not because of a leader but because we are each willing to stand up to the ideal. We follow not a person but a principle, a principle that lives within each one of us with the same strength and power.

When we acknowledge nothing about each other’s work we become destructive. That is what you’ve been doing here in your recent posts, together with Ton and unfortunately others.

What ever you move ahead with and work towards the exposure of the Fellowship cult I support. I wish you all good luck.

374. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

My suggestions were simply a way of getting from the general to the concrete. Which is what I thought you wanted when you left the blog.

Eventually, whatever ‘acknowledgement’ there is of each other’s work has to contain that movement.

375. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

The concrete is concrete enough. Your ideas are good. I’ll work on a site in time. It is a life’s work that I am happy to invest in.

376. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

I did not leave the blog, I was banned

377. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

My writing is concrete enough but if you don’t acknowledge what I say then it is concrete only for me.

378. nige - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

“I am no tyrant, but a Christian king.” (Henry V). I feel FOUNDATION OF MIGHTY GOOD WORK being prepared in these last few posts. I have to admit, I went, today, into psychological and physical Nadir and your positive willingness together here has sustained me…..Nigel.

379. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

What I mean by ‘concrete’ is a practical course of action [rather than research] that you find agreeable and in which you want to participate. That’s what you have been saying you want. Maybe I’m just not providing the right opportunity. Can you suggest a practical course of action that we could all subscribe to?

380. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

I already have Crouching Tiger.

I understand you are talking for your self and wonder how sincere you are about what you’re saying. It seems you’re just pushing things to expose the fact that for you I have nothing of real value to offer. That is the tone you are holding. I don’t expect anyone to subscribe to me but everyone should subscribe to the things that matter. I have already proposed these same things before:

I don’t see how we can act effectively if we are ignorant about the subject still in so many areas. The ideas and ideals are good but they need discussing and challenging, not being ignored.

There’s a lot of work that needs to be done on the legal aspect as much as on the religious one. Just getting the theory right might take a lifetime but if we get the theory right (and it is already pretty good), others will take care of carrying it out because they’ll have what they need to do so, because the spirit takes care of itself in our lives, it doesn’t care who carries the flag as long as the flag keeps waving.

If we agree on the problem and how it can be fixed, it is not difficult for each one to work on what most appeals to each. For me the problem is clear as I’ve stated it in the twelve points above and even that can be purified and clarified. Research is necessary and it takes many faces. Active research on particular topics as much as being simply aware of what is happening out there that connects to the problem. If we build a site like that, we each put into it what is relevant where it’s relevant, discuss it, challenge it and incorporate it as we go along, only if it passes the test. We each work in whatever area appeals to us. No one is leader. The cause leads each one of us and we each lead our selves: together but independently. The lifetime understanding that the problem is too complex to solve in one day or year or just by one person, doesn’t allow us to rush and do stupidities but we add understanding and action drop by drop. Once the keel is set there is a powerful impulse to keep adding to the journey attracting others who feel the necessity to move across with it. It creates a force. Eventually working with others will give results in the big scale of passing laws that change the course. We volunteered decades of our lives in the Fellowship cult for a more conscious world, why wouldn’t we volunteer decades of our lives against cults? Why would we avoid to penetrate the life of our times with full vigor.

Understanding the problem, really understanding the problem, seems to be the first step: The problem of the division of state and religion. Then understanding why they cannot be separate and how in that separation all the abuses have appeared in so many areas of social and individual life. Then explore what it would mean for both areas to work in harmony against those abuses. How has that worked in France and Germany and other countries?

That would be the big picture to understand first: To get it very clear inside each one of us so that we know the repercussions of the big picture on the small frame.

From there we can get more specific: Study the American phenomenon. Actualize the information. Keep informed about new lawsuits. Make presence were support is needed. Give lectures on the subject in universities and schools on how the problem has developed historically. Publish books.

Once a direction is placed the wind takes us where we need to go and we adjust the sails where necessary. Real causes run on their own and spare no one. We push each other like we’re pushing each other today. We add without tyranny to each other’s will because we will each other to act where action is possible.

How much more concrete do you want it? Everything I am saying today I’ve said many times before. At the same time that we are doing these things, we continue to live the life we enjoy with profound gratitude.

381. Elena - December 2, 2009 [Edit]

Dragon, Ton and Crouching Tiger, my sincere apologies for my inability to address you without harshness today.

382. nige - December 3, 2009 [Edit]

Elena, for you…..

‘Neither the living, not the unlabouring dead, Nor the high gods who never lived, may fight My enemy and hope; demons for fright Jabber and scream about him in the night; For he is strong and crafty as the seas That sprang under the Seven Hazel Trees, And I must needs endure and hate and weep’ Until the gods and demons drop asleep, Hearing Aedh touch the mournful strings of gold.’

William Butler Yeats

“Who touches me, touches a man.” (Walt Whitman)

Elena, I am so for you…..

Let me be ‘the wind beneath your wings’…..Nigel.

383. dragon - December 3, 2009 [Edit]

Elena,

Know that you are never alone. Know that your voice is already heard.

Es kommt ein Schiff geladen:

Es kommt ein Schiff geladen bis an den höchsten Bord, trägt Gottes Sohn voll Gnaden, des Vaters ewig Wort.

A ship is coming laden, And rich indeed her hoard; The Son of God the Father And his eternal Word. The ships sails soft, her burden Of price all measure past: Her mainsail, it is charity, The Holy Ghost the mast. The ship has dropped her anchor, Is safely come to land; Th’ eternal Word in likeness Of man on earth doth stand. In Bethlehem of Judah A child to us is born; Sing praises ever unto him Who saves a world forlorn. Whoever would embrace him With joy and holy kiss Must share with him the Passion Through which he comes to bliss. Be with him in his dying, His resurrection know, Eternal life inherit That he comes to bestow.

from Berlin for You:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tQb8pcj-aw

Life isn’t an eternal struggle, try to take a wave and find your shore. With harshness and charging at others you can’t see through your glass. You dim the light on the way to your soul.

The Public Square

The Separation between State and Religion

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Thursday 3 December 2009

Nigel, Crouching Tiger, Ton, Dragon, Elena Nov-Dec.2 -09

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