310. Elena - November 28, 2009 [Edit]If I confront the Fellowship with Jung or Steiner or myself they are theories of mine or others that are not valued. For me there is a limitation there not only in terms of the formatoriness of having to have the System as only reference but in terms of not hearing me. For me what you find beautiful in my poetry is not just the way it’s written but what is written for if it’s only the former, we’re done! I’m trying to put in prose what I understand in poetry and the journey through Jung was particularly enlightening because it not only helped me understand what was happening in the fof but in myself.
I don’t pretend that being objective is not including myself and limitations in the process. Understanding these phenomenon is not crystal clear I think for anyone here yet and if you and those on the fofblog think like that then you’ve already crystallized into something that is not what I’m interested in.
I have been extremely hurt not only by the Fellowship but in the fofblog and while I might have been very good at creating my own pain, I think the rest of you are not lame at it! There are a myriad specific issues being discussed here that are put under the blanket so that light is not shed on them and they touch our relationships in specific ways. We approve or disapprove each other, dialogue or neglect to dialogue with each other, love or dislike each other. We bind our emotional approval of each other if we don’t like the way we are being exposed intellectually, emotionally or sexually. We also compete with each other. Everything happens at the same time and the end result is that I get banned and you continue to support the blog that banned me without arguing against it, yes a few people screamed against me and voiced what so many felt but never discussed it, what makes you any better than the Fellowship? And now I am an unpronounceable subject! You’ve all committed to the silence! True that I did not want that to become a war against Ames or the moderator for it was important to protect the blog but the deep questioning is so necessary.
Nigel’s position is right. From one angle I was banned because I began screaming. I don’t deny that. But how many screamed at me before I screamed that weren’t banned? Who ever questioned that?
If we are really open with each other, we had many discussions on the fofblog and mine were a little better than many, not because I am better or healthier or superior in any way but because in those particular areas I had a little more experience. In fact, my arguments were a little better than most people’s for a long time. But having good arguments doesn’t make people love one, it makes them hate one. What Daily Cardiac is saying is the same that I feel and said: People stop addressing the argument and start attacking the individual when they can’t argue with the arguments. It was always the case that no one was able to confront Daily Cardiac as I confronted him on the fofblog. I think Jomo is superior in many ways to the way I confront him but I seem to understand something more about his psychology and situation than others. Jomo has a great deal more experience than me in other areas and it is the same with everyone else. We each have a particular area of experience that the others don’t have but in relation to the Fellowship of Friends and its horrors, I just seem to have enough to fill books and that is what is not being acknowledged because the Fellowship of Friends is not just about the Fellowship of Friends but about everything in life that put thousands of us inside from very different corners of the world and THAT is what most don’t want to discuss.
When someone is unwilling to consider the theories I present apparently disconnected to the immediate Fellowship experience, they are simply not willing to acknowledge the validity of my attempt to understand where specific aspects of the Fellowship were coming from. What I have confronted is not just the Fellowship but our selves.
Some of you want to reduce me to poems and Colombian stories and are unwilling to measure yourselves with the “theories” I present and I sincerely don’t believe it is because the theories don’t merit examination but because you are unwilling to examine them because they are 1. Coming from a woman 2. Not worth your time 3. too confusing 4. You don’t agree with them in principle 5. All of the above or just a few.
I am angry at the world. I am angry at men and women. I am furious with what I’ve experienced all my life and I am glad to say that even in all my anger I love life, men and women.
But the anger I have is specific. When I call Fellowship men sissies who allowed themselves to get raped as much as the women, children and old people I MEAN IT. And the problem is that they were already sissies when they got there. The mentality was ready for the rape. So my concern is not only the fact that the Fellowship made sissies of men but the fact that men today respond so positively to a narcissistic misogeneous sociopath.
What I am discussing here is OUR LIFE, not the Fellowship Cult. The fofblog wishes to reduce the problems to Bobby Burton but Bobby Burton is the worst victim of this whole phenomenon. You can’t come even close to explaining what happened to us if you reduce the problem to a poor idiot like me, an orphan who needs to suck penises as if they were tits because he didn’t have a father to help him become more of a man.
People in the fofblog can ban me as much as you like and pretend that you are above everyone else but you were as sick inside as you are outside. Ninety percent of ex-members are running away from the problem still hiding in the niceties of gold alchemy paraphernalia and behavior and the ten percent that is at least willing to discuss the problem is a bunch of males too afraid to deal with a woman that was raped over and over again not only by her teacher but by her husband. Raped psychologically as badly as the few were raped physically. And all you can do is put her out of the dialogue because you can’t deal with it.
It is alright not to be able to deal with it and you can say so: WE DON’T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE OF HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS but what you’ve done is ban me and shame me and treat me like a criminal, just like the Fellowship bans and shames people that don’t agree with it mostly because I called you SISSIES. What makes you less sick?
Aren’t you sissies? What is not sissie about a posture such as Ames’ that says, “I’m not trying to close the Fellowship, that would be futile!” I repeat it over and over again and I don’t believe my ears! Here we’ve been exposing every abuse of the Fellowship cult and all Ames who is one of the strongest here can say is “it’s futile to even try to close the cult that WE KNOW FROM FRESH AND DIRECT EXPERIENCE HAS RAPED AND EXPLOITED MEMBERS FOR ALMOST FORTY YEARS NOW. NO wonder Daily Cardiac addresses him, he is a guarantee for the continuation of the Fellowship cult.
You banned me because I called you FASCISTS willing to allow people to get hurt and remain quiet and I repeat it FASCISTS. Both men and women: FASCISTS
You can all keep going down that lane and I’ll get my brains shot and spread on the pavement like dirt but I will not put up with that status quo ever again in or outside any cult. That is not the life I wish my children and grandchildren to inherit or any future generation that has to put up with what we were not willing to fight. You can be all the American and European that you like and I can get shot in this country in minutes for speaking against such things but I’d rather be dead than adapt to those standards and that will come, I am just getting ready. I did it once in the cult but never again. It isn’t worth it. I fight and fight and continue to fight and lose if I must but die or live for what is worth no matter how alone.
There are many levels in our discussions and while I might support aspects of the fofblog against Daily Cardiac it doesn’t mean I support others. Nigel’s explanation of my banning is as shortsighted as one can get. Because I love him, I love him but like with my husband, that is not a condition to agree.
311. Crouching Tiger - November 28, 2009 [Edit]Elena.
“What Daily Cardiac is saying is the same that I feel and said: People stop addressing the argument and start attacking the individual when they can’t argue with the arguments. It was always the case that no one was able to confront Daily Cardiac as I confronted him on the fofblog.”
Strange now that you’ve found your truest ally in DC. Actually, you gave DC everything he wanted while you were still on the Blog. He pushed your buttons and you reacted, and before very long you were tearing apart people who wanted to agree with you, if not with all your methods. All DC had to to do was give it a little push and you did the rest for him, to the point where a number of bloggers felt there was no way they could live with you anymore. So you were banned, and a certain unity of purpose on the blog was broken.
Your idea that you can argue with him point by point, and that is the way forward for the blog, is the reverse of what you were saying only a short while ago. Then, you were condemning people for arguing with him and taking him seriously by taking the terms of his arguments seriously. You claimed it gave him legitimacy by doing so. You said as much to me, in those very words.
Now you condemn those same people for doing the opposite, and not taking his arguments seriously enough – not going through his arguments point by point and addressing each one with the utmost care!
You have almost no memory of what you said even a short time before, but you still expect your judgment in these matters to be not only trusted, but also to be considered a higher authority.
Your constant changes of mind and changes of allegiance from Steiner to Jung to whoever do not inspire trust either. How long have you been reading Steiner or Jung? A couple of weeks? Long enough to truly understand, or just give the same old arguments a flashy new frame of reference? A little quick polish?
By doing this you are actually diluting the issues and losing concentration of purpose. I don’t feel you have the clarity to guide anyone else. You lack firmness and run away into hysteria too easily. When you do this, it is you who are being the coward. Recklessness is not the same as courage.
312. Elena - November 29, 2009 [Edit]Thank you Crouching Tiger for speaking in this blog. Hopefully they won’t burn you at the stake!
Did you read my post to Daily Cardiac? The two last ones?
Where on earth do you see that he is my ally? Ally? “liar, liar, liar,” what makes you think that an ally is someone I call liar?
Pointing out that people don’t address the argument but the person as he does, doesn’t make him my ally!
There was never a unity of purpose on the fofblog. The majority kept silent. A group of men reacted to my posts as violently as I finally reacted and they were never questioned.
Arguing with him point by point has been done mostly by me until I thought it was an abuse that he just kept posting without being asked to give answers, then I began insulting him, sick pimp and all the rest of the insults. I certainly got tired of the game. Some have taken some of his points and they are generally good and Jomo was wonderful recently, he really touched deep but some points are not addressed that are important. His catholic or calvinist or protestant? point of view of spirituality has nothing to do with the work and no one is addressing that on the blog which means you are swallowing and letting it be swallowed and its crucial because it is such a powerful view in fellowship members convinced that that is the Work. We all ended up submitting like sheep to higher forces supposedly incarnated in Robert Burton like in a cheap comic book.
When I started insulting Daily Cardiac and screaming at him that he didn’t answer questions post after post I was certainly tired of the game and thought his being able to spread propaganda without being held accountable was absurd. A more active moderator would have helped there and then. We respect authority and moderators, another one could have directed the discussion a little better. That didn’t happen and I am glad Daily Cardiac continues to post. Don’t you understand that for me if he is Girard, I believe what helps is talking, hearing, responding, making contact? Agreeing and disagreeing is confrontational and reassuring at the same time. We need those references. One changes in the interaction not only because arguments are confronted but because there is contact. Can’t you see how happy he is here? There I mean? Frustrated because the issues are not addressed in their own terms but still participating. So my tiredness and protest when it came was certainly the declaration that I had reached a limit. Like when I insulted DXP with such a pathetic insult convinced that she was another Fellowship make believe character. Or the other guy that insulted me whose name I don’t even remember who was finally banned but not before he was able to word every insult that so many had in their mouths. And I was everything terrible, arrogant and whatever else but that doesn’t justify being banned like a criminal. You don’t realize how much those things matter do you? How we just re-enacted Fellowship behaviour?
Since you are willing to voice things for which I sincerely thank you, what do you say to that? Where am I lying or making things up? I’m no peach in cream Crouching Tiger and you could say that if I attracted all those insults something in me must have done it but I’ve been pointing out very sensitive areas of our make up and the abuse I’ve received has been covered up by equally questionable mentality as in the Fellowship Cult. Pointing out how men and women submitted, how we each gave into Robert the way we did, into the gold alchemy modeling, the hierarchic structure thinking we each were better because we were addressed by the Queen in some area even if just to rape us…
Of course I’ve pointed problems out that aren’t solely Robert’s and Girard’s and THAT is what’s gotten me so many enemies and I’ll take them but I’ll take them on those grounds and not the grounds that they pretend to impose on me: sick, crazy woman that is too old to heal. Weren’t those Old FOF’s terms? Be honest Crouching Tiger, weren’t they the terms? Isn’t that what you are all supporting in your silence? Let me ask two questions: Who here or there has questioned that? and second, even in my condition What would it have to do with the things I’ve questioned? Isn’t here precisely where we can see how we use a personal condition to demeanor the arguments? I’ve never hidden how difficult leaving the fellowship was or how it affected me.
Of course I’ve pointed problems out that aren’t solely Robert’s and Girard’s and THAT is what’s gotten me so many enemies and I’ll take them but I’ll take them on those grounds and not the grounds that they pretend to impose on me: sick, crazy woman that is too old to heal. Weren’t those Old FOF’s terms? Be honest Crouching Tiger, weren’t they the terms? Isn’t that what you are all supporting in your silence? Let me ask two questions: Who here or there has questioned that? and second, even in my condition What would it have to do with the things I’ve questioned? Isn’t here precisely where we can see how we use a personal condition to demeanor the arguments? I’ve never hidden how difficult leaving the fellowship was or how it affected me.
Of course I am hurt and imbalanced. Why wouldn’t I be? Do you think being banned like a criminal helped? Banned with the excuse that Fellowship members had to be protected? Have you not read them who banned me? They needed to protect their friends in the Fellowship cult! Fuck hurt ex-member!! Too bad for her!!
You all keep silent about these things and simply say that I’m crazy but these things are written down and signed by those people, I am not making these things up.
I have a pretty good memory Crouching Tiger. I remember these things well. They’ve come too close to not make a deep impression.
CT: You have almost no memory of what you said even a short time before, but you still expect your judgment in these matters to be not only trusted, but also to be considered a higher authority.—–
We should all come to trust each other. There’s too much distrust and not surprising after trusting Robert and Girard. But trusting each other does not mean following each other. And then we should not trust anyone more than our selves.
My judgments can be trusted or distrusted, that is not the point, the point is that I have a right to give out my judgments like anybody else and not to be treated like a criminal which I am not. No one worked as hard as I did on that blog for two years and Ames, Old fof , Bruce and Vena came along like the sacred cows we happen to know they think they are and took over with arguments no better than a Girard in the Fellowship would give. My point is, what is it that you keep supporting when the structure is the same? I don’t deny I was challenging and aggressive, we all were, but I got banned and I wasn’t the worst. Like someone testified on my behalf, I got run down after a long time of abuse from others. And what I am protesting is those of you who say you didn’t agree to my banning have never protested these things. But not only that, you tell me you don’t agree but then you are afraid to talk to me on this blog and then come up with the idea that my theory is worthless, I should write poetry and Colombian stories! Like a woman should? Poetry and Colombian stories is not what is supporting the Fellowship cult. Posts like Daily Cardiac’s matter and they are not being questioned deeply enough.
Crouching Tiger: Your constant changes of mind and changes of allegiance from Steiner to Jung to whoever do not inspire trust either. How long have you been reading Steiner or Jung? A couple of weeks? Long enough to truly understand, or just give the same old arguments a flashy new frame of reference? A little quick polish?
Have you bothered to read any of it? Steiner I didn’t quote that much but the text on concentration camps I posted as complete as I could. The approach and tone you have here is probably as bad as my sissies approach! Touché! I’ve read him long and plenty enough and don’t think the point is boasting about it. I write the comments in detail, they can be looked at, considered and argued, there’s dialogue in that. It is all I am asking from people who pretend to care about me because I just don’t understand why you’re ignoring the areas. I appreciate the support in the poetry and stories but the other areas are no less significant in terms of what is being dealt with and your undermining it with the argument that I haven’t read them long enough is a very cheap buffer to the question at hand.
The “changes of allegiance” is a very strange concept to me. What makes you think that we should keep allegiance to the Work, or Steiner or Jung and not the truth in all of them? The truth in the light of a very obvious phenomenon we are trying to understand and have been working on now for three years?
Levy’s work on Jung I just found and it is wonderful Crouching Tiger. It is not about me, it’s about life itself and ours in particular. I know enough of the System to understand Jung quickly. The ideas are parallel to each other. That was what I found shocking and it was written so well it wasn’t worth touching. Simply saying that my theorizing is of no value is such a separating force. The absolute rejection just doesn’t make sense. Where do you want me to fit it?
Crouching Tiger: By doing this you are actually diluting the issues and losing concentration of purpose. I don’t feel you have the clarity to guide anyone else. You lack firmness and run away into hysteria too easily. When you do this, it is you who are being the coward. Recklessness is not the same as courage.
What makes you think that I am trying to guide anyone else and not finding my self? I don’t conceive of having followers, god knows I can barely carry myself and have made that obvious, but pretending to dialogue does not seem too crazy an idea. I actually value what I have to offer a great deal and in fact do value what others offer even when I question it.
I lack firmness and run away into hysteria too easily? So that makes me guilty enough to be banned like a criminal? I am so glad my state has been obvious! Why would it be any other way? You land at fifty in a place you haven’t been in for thirty years, without contacts or job, deeply mistrustful of everything and everyone after investing 19 years of your energy to a cult. Why would I be any firmer or less hysteric? And you think banning or comments like this one help? Fortunately I’ve just passed the worst period. I’m not nearly as vulnerable as I was in the fofblog, Nigel and Dragon helped me wonders and I will not turn my back on either one no matter how much we disagree. I’m not too great either but at least not so deeply in the gutter.
I don’t think being vulnerable under these conditions makes me a coward CT. I don’t think calling things by their name as I do is cowardly. Coward acts seem those that say, “we know what is going on and find it futile to act against it” like Ames just said and since all of you participating in the fofblog implicitly agree to the status quo that banned me and therefore with those stands, I ask you again, isn’t that too sissy? You deal with a sick and aggressive woman banning her and let a narcissistic misogynous sociopath go free because it’s futile to try to stop him! Where are we?
Your last phrase is a gem: recklessness is not courage. Oh Crouching Tiger, as they say here, make fame and go to sleep! I just can’t win can I? If I patiently study the situation and look for more experienced authors for months to present ideas that resonate with mine, I am not good enough, If I scream; not good enough, if I stand on Ames’ side against Daily Cardiac as I did in my last posts or question you for saying it is futile to try to stop the Fellowship, I’m reckless!! I’m reckless in your eyes no matter what so why do you even bother? What I find strange is that you can neither discard me with the same coldness Ames and Bruce do nor embrace me whole. It seems worth struggling a little longer that we can at least dialogue accepting the conditions! Or as others have done, wish each other well and move on!
No comments:
Post a Comment