40 Ton
e: “If you like the role of moderator, you’re also welcome to play it!!”
e: “If you like the role of moderator, you’re also welcome to play it!!”
no elena, as i alluded to in addressing your post 29, i think you are doing an excellent job…
e: “As moderator of this blog could I ask you Ton what is the purpose of your participation here? What is your aim if any?”
elena, i’ve explained this to you before but obviously you need a lot of reassurance, so here it is again: my current ‘participation’ here stems from your most recent banning over at the fof blog… over there i started to pry back the surfaces you so identified yourself with, i questioned some of your perspectives and offered alternative considerations, to which you reacted with a defensive/aggressive feedback loop. i felt that something was started over there, and judging by your defensive reactions, we were getting at some core issues with you… although i understand why the moderator acted as he did, i felt that simply banishing you to your own little room here was not a particularly therapeutic nor a very compassionate gesture, in hindsight, taking up the space over there to process your core issues was not appropriate, but to leave you hanging with parts of your facade peeled away, was not appropriate either so i attempted to do a follow-up here on your site, a follow-up to what was started there on the fofblog. this should explain somewhat what my “aim” is “if any” and i’ve said it before but i’ll say it again because you need to be reassured… my intention is to help you to realize something about yourself, to help you to see yourself through the eyes of another… but since you’ve already said that you don’t need help, then it seems all too obvious that i’m wasting my time.
e: “Are you here as a friend?”
do you need to be reassured again? friendship is not a declaration, it’s a process, it’s a verb… and there are two sides of the coin… you have to answer this question for yourself.
e: “How would you be expressing friendship in your discourse?”
i think i’ve addressed this in stating my intentions… by the way, there are many different types of friendship.
e: “Are you here as an fofblog representative?”
you’re kidding, right ?
e: “As a male whose gender has been attacked forcefully by Elena in the fofblog due to the role they’ve played inside and outside the fofcult? As a male who is trying to sort out his relationship with women and is projecting his difficulties on Elena?”
elena, as far as I AM concerned, gender has nothing to do with it… we all have a female as well as a male side, do you realize that? I think you do… look elena, gender has nothing to do with it, i am A PERSON and you are another PERSON… so if YOU are forced to look at things through a sexist lens, please don’t attempt to project that on me…
e: “Do you have an interest in dialogue? What is dialogue to you?”
elena, from the beginning you’ve denied that this is a dialogue… do you know why ?
e: “It seems that your only aim here is to prove Elena wrong. Could you share what is constructive about that from your point of view?”
i point out the areas i disagree with, yes… and would you not agree that if the foundation is faulty then it needs to be examined and repaired or replaced ? in some cases ‘deconstruction’ has to precede construction, otherwise the structure is built on faulty premises and it will crumble. yes elena, there is a lot you ‘say’ here that i tacitly agree with — by ‘tacit’ i mean i don’t have to point it out to you. what is it about you that you need so much reassurance coming from outside sources ?
e: “There is a lot of material here that does not concern Elena’s personal condition that you seem to avoid consistently. Are you unable to reach out of the personal sphere in a conversation or is this a particular aim that you have, to remain in the personal sphere and if that is the case, would you share why you think it is the only constructive sphere of your participation?”
if you are talking about all the stuff you’re cutting and pasting here, you know what? i can do my own researching, thank you very much. consider this elena, all of the ‘material’ you are cutting and pasting here is being filtered through you and in that sense it too involves “the personal sphere” as you put it… i’ve already addressed my intention (“aim” as you put it) and i’ve already talked about how ‘deconstruction’ and a close and careful examination of the center – the “I” in this case – is actually a prerequisite condition for construction.
e: “Do you remain in the sphere of the personal because that is your aim or because you are unable to move out of it?”
yes that is my “aim” as you put it… my intentions, as i’ve already made clear, are to address YOU here…. as for moving out of the “personal sphere” — in this regard i’ve offered numerous suggestions and many links for your consideration – what you fail to consider here is that all of this so-called ‘non-personal material’ is being sifted and collected and filtered through YOU, so what is being reflected ? it’s YOU ! the micro and macro levels are intimately connected.
e: “I would invite you to choose any subject that you like and try to talk about it without references to your personalities, that is yours and Elena’s and see if that could help you both get out of the identification with each other.”
personality is the tip of the iceberg elena, it really is simply a reflection of much deeper issues… cutting and pasting in abstractions and “isms” may reflect some things about you, your interests and desires, but this can also obscure and obfuscate the center… like i said, i’m interested in what lies beneath… apparently you’re interested in “flowers.”
e: “In that identification you are both expressing an emotional binding but it is acting against the possibility of friendship. Could you both try to relate to each other through the subject themselves rather than the personalities themselves?”
how you define ‘friendship’ is of course a subjective judgment… i do relate to you through the subject, the subject is afterall ultimately the ‘YOU’ and the ‘I’… and this relating to the ‘YOU’ and the ‘I’ is a real and practical application of the “we” you keep harping on. it’s odd that you find a practical concrete treatment of “we” so disturbing… instead you are content to deal in abstractions based on platitudes and “isms” that you are so fond of… i guess that feels safe for you.
e: “The diplomacy according to you is just on the surface but in fact it is in the surface where flowers bloom.”
maybe that’s where we differ, i’m talking about the roots, what lies beneath, that’s what gives rise to your blooming flowers.
41 Elena
Hi Ton,
You write:
i questioned some of your perspectives and offered alternative considerations,
Would you please explain what perspectives you questioned and what alternatives you offered?
There or here?
42 Ton
e: “Would you please explain what perspectives you questioned and what alternatives you offered? There or here?
both there and here!!! what are you missing elena ?! you’ve denied that this is a dialogue for so long now that you actually believe it… it’s evident that you are in denial and selectively reading what i say to you here… so what is it that you you need? other than attention, that’s obvious… look elena, i’ve really been trying to be patient with you, and believe it or not, my intention is to help… but i know that there is often a gap between intention and actuality, and as long as you are in denial you cannot be helped… you are an island elena, and you are a test for my patience… but this is getting ridiculous and tediuous…
here is just one example of many wherein i questioned your perspective and offered others… you can go back and find example after example… both ‘here’ and ‘there.’ but you could have done this for yourself elena, like i’ve said so many times, i’m not here to spoonfeed you, or babysit, or massage your ego, so as gently but as firmly as possible i will suggest that from now on, please try to answer some of your own questions and in the process may i suggest you stop looking outside of yourself for validations and reassurances:
82. ton – April 9, 2010
elena, why so defensive? i’ve “demanded” nothing of you… and of course you don’t have anything to prove to me…. a point i’m trying to make has to do with honesty…. because i consider it to be important. let’s briefly review… this thread started when i suggested that there are limits to the anthropocentricism of a doctrine you’ve been espousing which we’ve identified as “humanism.” i did not suggest there was anything wrong with the doctrine or that there is anything wrong with you for supporting it… i merely indicated my opinion of the limitations of said doctrine and in the process suggested avenues of research that have influenced my own perspectives. after your “in depth” research (apparently you perused something by mckenna), you came back with your “informed” conclusions regarding the “REAL magic” — that it’s “in the human being” and etc… i pointed out that this sort of ego-centric species-bias was in fact at the root of the problem and at that point i questioned whether you had ever actually ingested one of these compounds that you so blithely dismiss, because from what i could gather in what you wrote, you didn’t really grok the experience nor the wider implications. i questioned a type of arrogant and blind anthropocentricism which IS the problem… i suggested that you consider the relational aspect in nature which the human species ignores at it’s own peril and destruction….
elena, why so defensive? i’ve “demanded” nothing of you… and of course you don’t have anything to prove to me…. a point i’m trying to make has to do with honesty…. because i consider it to be important. let’s briefly review… this thread started when i suggested that there are limits to the anthropocentricism of a doctrine you’ve been espousing which we’ve identified as “humanism.” i did not suggest there was anything wrong with the doctrine or that there is anything wrong with you for supporting it… i merely indicated my opinion of the limitations of said doctrine and in the process suggested avenues of research that have influenced my own perspectives. after your “in depth” research (apparently you perused something by mckenna), you came back with your “informed” conclusions regarding the “REAL magic” — that it’s “in the human being” and etc… i pointed out that this sort of ego-centric species-bias was in fact at the root of the problem and at that point i questioned whether you had ever actually ingested one of these compounds that you so blithely dismiss, because from what i could gather in what you wrote, you didn’t really grok the experience nor the wider implications. i questioned a type of arrogant and blind anthropocentricism which IS the problem… i suggested that you consider the relational aspect in nature which the human species ignores at it’s own peril and destruction….
now back to the point, which is honesty… and i am not accusing you of anything, i am not trying to “shame” you, (i will say that shame implies one has something to hide), and i am certainly not “angry” as you say, i am simply trying to understand where you are coming from…. yes i did read carefully enough to see that you mentioned amanita in the context of the vedas…. now is that supposed to imply that you’ve actually ingested amanita? because that’s not what i took from your history lesson. is there a further point to this little tidbit from the annals of time ? you don’t seem to me like the type of person who would be ashamed of admitting to experimentation…. so i wonder what are you ashamed of? i’m curious to know…
and i really do hope this is not offending you…. that’s truly not my intention… look, i’m not ashamed of my experiences with these things… by the way, i think i’ve related the story here about the night of my 21st birthday, but here it is again briefly: i did ingest one of these substances, i left the party and spent the rest of that balmy july night nestled in the arms of a great elm tree overlooking the lake illumined by a nearly full moon…. as the sun rose, i came down from the tree, and i resolved to search for a “natural” way to experience the profound state of merging – what maurice bucke termed “cosmic consciousness.” soon thereafter i found a “workbook” with one of those insidious bookmarks in it… i telephoned the number, and the rest, as they say, “is history…”
all the best
43 Elena
Ton:
Ton:
e: “There is a lot of material here that does not concern Elena’s personal condition that you seem to avoid consistently. Are you unable to reach out of the personal sphere in a conversation or is this a particular aim that you have, to remain in the personal sphere and if that is the case, would you share why you think it is the only constructive sphere of your participation?”
if you are talking about all the stuff you’re cutting and pasting here, you know what? i can do my own researching, thank you very much.
No, I am not only talking about the stuff Elena is cutting and pasting here but about Elena’s different points on various subjects such as:
dialogue
cults
suicide
the position of ex-members in relation to the fofcult and what needs to be done to get members out.
The relationship between cults and what is happening in society
The separation of state and religion and how that is mirrored in the emotional, intellectual centers in individuals.
Homicide and suicide in society as an expression of the social malady in societies that are, like cults, using people for productivity but ignoring the human need to participate in the cultural and political processes
just to mention a few of the areas that Elena has significantly explored on this blog and was trying to explore in the other blog too in three of her first posts that you totally ignored.
cults
suicide
the position of ex-members in relation to the fofcult and what needs to be done to get members out.
The relationship between cults and what is happening in society
The separation of state and religion and how that is mirrored in the emotional, intellectual centers in individuals.
Homicide and suicide in society as an expression of the social malady in societies that are, like cults, using people for productivity but ignoring the human need to participate in the cultural and political processes
just to mention a few of the areas that Elena has significantly explored on this blog and was trying to explore in the other blog too in three of her first posts that you totally ignored.
44 Ton
e: “…just to mention a few of the areas that Elena has significantly explored on this blog and was trying to explore in the other blog too in three of her first posts that you totally ignored.”
i ignored nothing, i read those posts and mostly everything since and before those posts… look elena, maybe the difficulty here lies in communication ‘styles’ — just because i CHOOSE not to discuss something, it does not imply that i haven’t read it or i’m ignoring it, in fact, as i’ve said before, if i ‘say’ nothing, that is, if i’m not objecting to or in disagreement with a point that generally implies a tacit agreement on my part… and it does not imply that i’m ‘ignoring’ it.
let me ask you, why is it that you are so insecure that you need all of this external validation, why are you so insecure that you become defensive and agitated whenever someone is not actively supporting your particular point of view, why are you so insecure that whenever your point of view is questioned or an alternative is suggested, you loose your mind and claim you’re being ‘abused’ and etc ??? do you know why ?
45 Elena
Ton,
you write: “although i understand why the moderator acted as he did, i felt that simply banishing you to your own little room here was not a particularly therapeutic nor a very compassionate gesture”
You’ve stated before: “it was you (Elena) who was much more aggressive and abusive in your language to me, than i was toward you”
you write: “although i understand why the moderator acted as he did, i felt that simply banishing you to your own little room here was not a particularly therapeutic nor a very compassionate gesture”
You’ve stated before: “it was you (Elena) who was much more aggressive and abusive in your language to me, than i was toward you”
Would you please show us where in the fofblog you see the aggressive and abusive language that Elena used?
46 Elena
Ton:
e: “Are you here as a friend?”
do you need to be reassured again? friendship is not a declaration, it’s a process, it’s a verb… and there are two sides of the coin… you have to answer this question for yourself.
What makes you think that a post like this one is reassuring in any way? Or that when you ridicule Elena or limit yourself to stating that she’s simply deranged there is a friendly intention?
1. Elena: Don’t use we
2. This is Elena’s sandbox with nothing of value in it
3. Elena is in denial
4. I won’t prove my points with actual citations, Elena do your homework
5. Elena got banned because she can’t take responsibility for herself?
6. Elena does not have the level of development to understand me
7. Elena is stuck
8. Elena is deranged
9. Elena is a legend in her deranged imagination.
2. This is Elena’s sandbox with nothing of value in it
3. Elena is in denial
4. I won’t prove my points with actual citations, Elena do your homework
5. Elena got banned because she can’t take responsibility for herself?
6. Elena does not have the level of development to understand me
7. Elena is stuck
8. Elena is deranged
9. Elena is a legend in her deranged imagination.
What makes you think that there is anything friendly about your posts when you neglect to acknowledge what you agree with and point out only what you disagree with: Elena
And when you use a ridiculing tone and other techniques such as saying that you are getting impatient, that its tedious, that Elena needs to do her homework?
Where do you see friendship or a good intention in your participation?
47 Ton
e: “Would you please show us where in the fofblog you see the aggressive and abusive language that Elena used?”
who is “us” elena ? are you referring to me and you ? or now is it me and you and your alter-ego ?
you can go back and find example after example… both ‘here’ and ‘there.’ but you could have done this for yourself elena, like i’ve said so many times, i’m not here to spoonfeed you, or babysit, or massage your ego, so as gently but as firmly as possible i will suggest that from now on, please try to answer some of your own questions and in the process may i suggest you stop looking outside of yourself for validations and reassurances:
calling me a ‘sickhead’ comes quickly to mind, there are many other examples but i’m not interested in this little schizophrenic charade you’re playing now…. we’re really ‘talking’ past each other… are you even bothering to read, much less consider what i’m ‘saying’ ? if you’re truly interested… obviously you’re not really… you could find many many examples for yourself elena… do your own homework and stop playing absurd games.
calling me a ‘sickhead’ comes quickly to mind, there are many other examples but i’m not interested in this little schizophrenic charade you’re playing now…. we’re really ‘talking’ past each other… are you even bothering to read, much less consider what i’m ‘saying’ ? if you’re truly interested… obviously you’re not really… you could find many many examples for yourself elena… do your own homework and stop playing absurd games.
48 Ton
e: “Are you here as a friend?”
do you need to be reassured again? friendship is not a declaration, it’s a process, it’s a verb… and there are two sides of the coin… you have to answer this question for yourself.
e: “What makes you think that a post like this one is reassuring in any way?”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
you really just don’t get it do you… i am not trying to reassure you elena, my intention is not to reassure you but to point out your obvious need for reassurance. look elena, once again, i’m not here to massage your fragile ego, i refuse to do so, and i may be the best friend you’ll find for refusing to do so. what i am pointing out is YOUR apparent and obvious need for reassurance and YOUR obvious and frankly YOUr infantile need for outside validation because of YOUR own insecurities… is that clear enough ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
you really just don’t get it do you… i am not trying to reassure you elena, my intention is not to reassure you but to point out your obvious need for reassurance. look elena, once again, i’m not here to massage your fragile ego, i refuse to do so, and i may be the best friend you’ll find for refusing to do so. what i am pointing out is YOUR apparent and obvious need for reassurance and YOUR obvious and frankly YOUr infantile need for outside validation because of YOUR own insecurities… is that clear enough ?
49 Elena
Sickhead is a word I used here in this blog after you manipulated me for over a week pretending that if I researched things over and over for you, you would let me participate in that blog but none of you had any intention to do that and you least of all. Here you are just trying to prove in every single post that I am not worthy of being heard and ignoring eveything I am saying as in this list:
dialogue
cults
suicide
the position of ex-members in relation to the fofcult and what needs to be done to get members out.
The relationship between cults and what is happening in society
The separation of state and religion and how that is mirrored in the emotional, intellectual centers in individuals.
Homicide and suicide in society as an expression of the social malady in societies that are, like cults, using people for productivity but ignoring the human need to participate in the cultural and political processes
cults
suicide
the position of ex-members in relation to the fofcult and what needs to be done to get members out.
The relationship between cults and what is happening in society
The separation of state and religion and how that is mirrored in the emotional, intellectual centers in individuals.
Homicide and suicide in society as an expression of the social malady in societies that are, like cults, using people for productivity but ignoring the human need to participate in the cultural and political processes
because as long as you can ignore and not acknowledge the roots of what I am actually doing and saying here you can justify your own behavior and my banning. That is a sick behavior, a behaviour of denial just like everything else you’ve been denying and now saying it is “tacit” and trying to use even that against me pretending that it is I who need reassuring and WHY would I ever?
That is what is sick Ton.
The question is very clear, don’t avoid it,
Would you please show us where in the fofblog you see the aggressive and abusive language that Elena used?
Would you please show us where in the fofblog you see the aggressive and abusive language that Elena used?
Show US, is US Ton, you and I are not the only ones participating in this blog. There are other people reading too.
Ton:
e: “It seems that your only aim here is to prove Elena wrong. Could you share what is constructive about that from your point of view?”
i point out the areas i disagree with
Would you give us a few examples of the areas you disagree with?
e: “It seems that your only aim here is to prove Elena wrong. Could you share what is constructive about that from your point of view?”
i point out the areas i disagree with
Would you give us a few examples of the areas you disagree with?
Ton:
yes elena, there is a lot you ‘say’ here that i tacitly agree with — by ‘tacit’ i mean i don’t have to point it out to you. what is it about you that you need so much reassurance coming from outside sources ?
yes elena, there is a lot you ‘say’ here that i tacitly agree with — by ‘tacit’ i mean i don’t have to point it out to you. what is it about you that you need so much reassurance coming from outside sources ?
What is it in you that thinks that flowers and beauty and acknowledging what is positive in other people needs to be left tacit especially when you yourself state that Elena is in a condition of vulnerability? If you are so clear about that condition and your intention here is to help what makes you think that simply attacking and reducing everything to the sphere of Elena’s deranged self will help the conversation or Elena?
Ton:
e: “The diplomacy according to you is just on the surface but in fact it is in the surface where flowers bloom.”
e: “The diplomacy according to you is just on the surface but in fact it is in the surface where flowers bloom.”
maybe that’s where we differ, i’m talking about the roots, what lies beneath, that’s what gives rise to your blooming flowers.
What makes you think that the roots can survive without the flowers? Why are you separating them and not being able to take the flowers when they are there and think you can see the roots when you are unwilling to acknowledge Elena’s intention?
What do you think is Elena’s intention?
What do you think is Elena’s intention?
Have you ever considered what her intention is?
50 Elena
Your intentions here Ton are not friendly or constructive. There is a very particular technique that you are using that I will expose all too soon and show you how and why it is so destructive.
You cannot manipulate me any further in trying to make me believe that I am needing reassurance or other pettinesses from you to be able to have a decent conversation that you have proved completely unable to accomplish.
Since this is very clear and you are not interested in talking about the things I am interested in exploring on these blogs such as
dialogue
cults
suicide
the position of ex-members in relation to the fofcult and what needs to be done to get members out.
The relationship between cults and what is happening in society
The separation of state and religion and how that is mirrored in the emotional, intellectual centers in individuals.
Homicide and suicide in society as an expression of the social malady in societies that are, like cults, using people for productivity but ignoring the human need to participate in the cultural and political processes
cults
suicide
the position of ex-members in relation to the fofcult and what needs to be done to get members out.
The relationship between cults and what is happening in society
The separation of state and religion and how that is mirrored in the emotional, intellectual centers in individuals.
Homicide and suicide in society as an expression of the social malady in societies that are, like cults, using people for productivity but ignoring the human need to participate in the cultural and political processes
and are only interested in a personal attack on my person, I would kindly ask you to refrain from posting unless you can move out of the personal sphere and truly address the subjects at hand.
I thank you for your assesment of my condition, I don’t agree with it and I don’t think it is in any way helpful to the aims of this blog.
51 Ton
e: “What makes you think that the roots can survive without the flowers? Why are you separating them and not being able to take the flowers when they are there… etc ”
and what makes you think that the flowers can survive without roots?
e: “Your intentions here Ton are not friendly or constructive. There is a very particular technique that you are using that I will expose all too soon and show you how and why it is so destructive.”
yes elena, and when with all of your “objective might” you do “expose” this “very particular technique” i hope you will factor in your own manipulations and see them for what they are… but i don’t expect you will… based on past experience i’m sure this “exposing” will turn out to be yet another exercise and example of projection… you know, focusing on the “mote in the eye of another while ignoring the beam in your own…”
is this not a dialogue elena ? if not, why ?
No comments:
Post a Comment