Ton and Elena-second try

24 Ton.

elena: “I would like to carry out a more detailed study of Ton’s and my interaction so that we can look at how we use language to attack each other’s I and what we would need to avoid to let and help each other be. That whole recent interaction with the fofblog has some wonderful ingredients that can allow us to study the inability people have to give and receive, including my self who… continued being defensive with Ton who was aggressive…. I understood we had agreed on was that as long as I wasn’t aggressive with other writers I would not be banned but although Ton and Nigel were very aggressive to me, it was I who got banned…. etc, etc, etc.”

gee elena, i thought you said “we” were finished with this topic… apparently “we” are not quite over it yet, are “we” ? so ‘study’ this:

what purpose does it serve to go on living in the past elena ? to keep wallowing in it, churning it over and over again… to continually return to this picture you are painting of yourself as “victim” — what is this “feeding” within you elena ? i mean i thought you’d already resolved the issue… naturally, your viewpoint – since it is ‘yours’ – is infallibly ‘correct’ and therefore the only one to consider; so who are you trying to convince by returning to this tired exercise ? who is “we” elena ?

so, let’s go over this again, because apparently you need to review: you call ANY direct questioning of your viewpoint “aggression” — and yes i do agree with you that you invariably respond “defensively” when your viewpoint is questioned, and you respond defensively when an alternate viewpoint is suggested… in other words, whenever another individual disagrees with you or plays an ‘adversarial’ role by actively questioning your viewpoint, this is perceived by you as “aggressive,” and as a perceived act of “aggression” you react “defensively.” here is the important part elena, your defensive posturing leads to aggressive responses by YOU… in fact elena, during many of our exchanges, it was you who was much more aggressive and abusive in your language to me, than i was toward you… could bringing up a supposedly “resolved” issue again and again be an “aggressive” act on your part elena ? what, you’re not getting the attention you crave here and so you do a little fishing expedition to see what you can catch ? here’s an area for your own self-reflection elena, why is it that you get yourself into this defensive/aggressive feedback loop ? what does it feed ? and what are you are trying to protect ?

this ‘victim’ mentality that you return to over and over again has to do with an inflated ego… it’s a variation on a theme of the ‘martyr’ complex which (inversely) feeds an overly-inflated self-perception… this defensive/aggressive behavior loop that is so intimately connected to your self-perceived ‘victimhood,’ is simply another form of self-aggrandizing in this sense: if you feel you’re not getting the positive recognition, the praise and the adulation you believe you ‘deserve’ for being so brilliant, for being so ‘special’ — then you’ll get the ‘specialized’ attention you crave through a negative role as the self-perceived victim… this mentality serves as a ‘compensatory mechanism.’ you see elena, i don’t perceive you as a victim at all, quite the contrary… but i do think you portray yourself in such a manner in order to draw attention to yourself.

e: “It is very good to observe these things so that we can understand…”

who is “WE” elena ? — i don’t know about this “we” you continually imagine you’re speaking for, but i do know that framing a particular situation in such grandiose and broad terms, simply diverts and diffuses your own focused attention on the issues that YOU need to deal with… let’s phrase what you say in different terms: it is very good for YOU elena, to observe these things so that YOU can understand… etc.

Hi Ton,

You're right, I said that what happened in the fofblog was over and what I really meant was that our attacking each other on a personal ground for what happened there was over. You've made your attacks and I've made mine and we don't agree and that is O.K. What is over is the attacks and the tones. That is what I won't take further. Analyzing and learning from it is what I will continue to pursue. If you wish to dialogue about it you are welcome.

My interest is not in hurting you but in helping our selves learn with our interactions and our “vices” in speech are too many to avoid the opportunity but I’ll let time pass so that you’re less identified with your role in them and can see more clearly. I realize how delicate this is but avoiding the lessons is not going to help us learn anything. What is most ironic about what you are doing is that you are one of the few people that I have never been seriously aggressive with. I was much more with others before I got banned but you I have consistently avoided because you were in fact very kind at the beginning. You actually tried to dialogue some but I did question a lot of what you offered. That is what is hurting isn't it? But you don't acknowledge that I am often as critical of myself as I am of others or that I apologize or what my deep intention really is. Avoiding everything is a great way to miss the whole but that doesn't speak about the whole but about your limitations.

What I will not have from you is not questioning but offensive tone. You are controlling it here which is good because I will act on the rules I’ve placed for the public square.

You state: “it was you who was much more aggressive and abusive in your language to me, than i was toward you”

I dare you to prove that with specific quotations. I have been very specific every time you’ve used the “smooshing my ass tone”, be as specific as that and prove your point.

Having been banned is a fact Ton not a victim mentality.

If you take a look at this post from Golden Veil, she clearly affirms that she is being insulted and Someone hasn’t even used a third of the aggressive language you’ve used against me or stated as you did that she’s been dishonest. People in that blog don’t treat each other like you treated me but condone your treating me like that. That is what you took advantage of. That is what is hurting you so badly in being exposed. You can’t just say sorry, I made a mistake, you have to find madness in me to justify it and be even more aggressive. If you realize that my interest here is to expose all such abuses not only from you and the people participating in the fofblog but everywhere I see it you would understand what I am doing without taking it so personally. It is you who are defensive because I am exposing you but instead of proving your points you attack me. It is common behavior.

You mention my ego trip or thinking that I am brilliant. Do you think I am brilliant? Where am I saying that about my self? Show us.

I am human Ton, not necessarily brilliant. That is good enough for me.

214.            Golden Veil - May 1, 2010

211. Someone

“If you cannot deal with facts and can only repeat the usual bla bla about the FoF, than you are not a very intelligent person.”

I am surprised that you would stoop to this sort of abusive ad hominem personal attack. You insult me: I am not factual, I just repeat the usual bla bla cliches and am unintelligent.

You, on the other hand, would never speak in cliches, especially about the “pleasingness” of certain superficialities you avidly list regarding the FoF form:

“You get good friends, in most cases good food and good wine for reasonable prices, nice countryside view, good looking women and nice guys and quite available sex.”

You say, “The FoF is worthy of hash criticism and not childish talk.”

Well, as I said, “But what about the high control, judgemental, money grabbing, emotional and sexual abusing, etc., and etc.”

To expand upon one of my harsh criticisms (in order to be less bla bla), I choose ‘judgemental.’

This is not a superficial aspect by any means. Judgement is pervasive throughout the Fellowship of Friends experience. The Fellowship of Friends world is defined by a class system made up of “life people,” students, center directors, inner circle, young men entourage, and teacher. An atmosphere of judgement is diffused through each of these: students look with disdain upon the “life people” still under A influence. They “photograph” each other, and are encouraged to not only inform on each other, but also on themselves.

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“The Fellowship of Friends world is defined by a class system made up of “life people,” students, center directors, inner circle, young men entourage, and teacher” AND the fofblog people and Elena who questions them all.

I like that position Ton. I would have loved to be part of the Fellowship of Friends, the fofblog, the status quo everywhere, but I am not willing to submit to authority other than my own. If being banned and ridiculed by people like you is the price of that, let me take the punishment with the grace others have had the courage to take it. I am not the first human in this world.