We are One - Objective Art

There's nothing really contradictory between what you're saying to what I'm saying. If you can hear the music of the Germans and hold them as human beings then you can despise their fascism and still be objectively conscious. To despise the burning of women with a cigarette does not fight with consciousness, it actualizes it. Such acts can be despised but that does not take away the human condition of the perpetrator and acting inhumanly towards him or her is as unconscious as his or her act. You can call yourself an initiate candidate and humanism "crap" but if you can't be human, there's no consciousness in your being.

A dialogue is a dialogue and if you burn other people's voice with your imposition of the uniqueness of your point of view and its absoluteness, you're no better than Picasso burning his women with cigarettes.

Crap? So easy to discard other people and other people's voice with words like that. What more would you do to keep the throne of your unique point of view?

What matters here is not your or my ideas but our ability to sit with each other and dialogue like human beings. If that is not the aim of your conscious objectivity and you feel you have to hit hard on others because they don't agree with you because you hold the bible in your hands, please let me know so that I can remain elsewhere. It will not be the first time I am banned for standing up and questioning behavior like yours. If you really wanted to listen to others you would have realized that we're actually saying the same thing you said in your second post and there's no need to undermine me with labels like crap. Objective Art? Conscience?

We can't even begin to dialogue about objective art or conscience if we cannot respect each other's equality in the forum and guarantee each other's freedom to speak. M. has said this is not a site only for Gurdjieff and his point of view of the world, you can bring whatever you like but that does not make you better than anybody else nor does it make you have the right to speak more than anybody else or condition me to remain silent. Objectivity can only take place when we allow each other to be and pull our selves together enough to hold each other no matter the struggle between us.  That is the first step: To be. The qualities of being are that we can express ourselves freely, that we can participate, that we have a right to be treated with dignity. Cults love destroying everything the human being has struggled for so that they can hold themselves up as the new "saviours" of their times but real teachers don't destroy the traces of consciousness in society or separate individuals from the human being. You don't understand Gurdjieff or his system if you can't be conscious in life, simple regular everyday life with all its nuisances and demands. If you enjoy crap and eat crap in every day life, that is the reality you make objective in your subjectivity. Only cults and people who wish to establish hierarchies between each other stand up for being more special than the rest and think they have the "authority" to diminish others in words or actions because people don't blindly comply to their expressions of "power". Your tone and harshness doesn't intimidate me. I've been to hell and back, and been the devil like you. There's nothing in it of any value to human or conscious progress if we cannot come to love after that.

Much more important than Picasso is what he was objectively able to convey about his own struggle and that of his times. We are not looking for saints in our times but people like you and me who can recognize the devil inside and hold it to its knees. Picasso's Art is no less Art because he was a violent man at times. His violence may speak badly about him but his Art reveals his human spirit, and there is NOTHING more spiritual or conscious than our humanity. You cannot judge a man without understanding his times. The pressure of Germans to come to grips with the fact that each individual must respond for his and her acts way beyond what he or she is being ordered by his or her superiors and entourage is the pressure of all of mankind today. That possibility of holding our selves up to our individual conscience and humanly respond for each other is objective consciousness. Discarding each other with made up justifications of how great our beliefs are is another form of fascism.

Have you really forgotten what it is to be human, like so many people in our times?