39. Elena - April 6, 2010
Hi Ton,
Would you say that reductionism is quite an obstacle too?
40. Elena - April 6, 2010
For you with love!
41. Elena - April 6, 2010
Actually Ton, the observation is very valuable, the problem is hardly ever in the doctrine but in the way it is lived out. We are after all, still trying to be human!
“There is a certain enthusiasm in liberty that makes human nature rise above itself in acts of bravery and heroism” Alexander Hamilton
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Having witnessed Elena’s state at the time, I think I’m authorized to state that she was already very sad and making tremendous effort to keep up with Ton. When she ask Ton if reductionism is not an obstacle, she’s already very tired. She’s been trying to get back on the blog presenting her arguments from the research she’d been doing for six months trying to validate each idea with concrete life examples and everything is put aside by Ton and reduced to one or two quotes taken out of context.
Is Elena mentally ill?
As mentally ill as anyone who’s been under a cult experience for seventeen years could be. Does that justify Ton’s behavior when he is well aware of the circumstances? What do we really have in Ton’s unwillingness to acknowledge any of Elena’s arguments? What is he really trying to do?
What is Elena trying to do?
She’s trying to get back onto a blog and erase the idea that she’s mentally ill by presenting coherent arguments. She’s trying to be with the people that shared with her the cult experience. She’s trying to present new ideas based on concrete research on the problem of cults. She’s trying to be herself in a group that has already violently rejected her once.
Is Elena trying to impose her points of view and find submissive followers?
She’s certainly trying to present her points of view and arguing on their behalf strongly but she consistently states that they are there for exploration. Trying to find submissive followers would be difficult to affirm because no matter how many times Nigel has tried to submit to her she has consistently questioned him and turned him back on his self.
The discussion continues:
42. nige - April 6, 2010
Hey Elena
Why are some of your posts coming up as ‘Adober Readable Only’?…..Nigel
43. Thot Plickens - April 6, 2010
True, humanism is a doctrine. Not to get too involved with translating here, but I think what Elena is suggesting is that one (a.k.a., Juan) can transform humanism into something that’s more than a doctrine.
[I'm not sure that's exactly what she's saying, though.]
But by becoming an actual humanist — not someone who studies it in books or professes to be one — you transcend the doctrine or the idealogy. You become the words.
Doctrines and ideologies are maybe a formalized or structured set of ideas — a set of organized thoughts. That’s good, but if they don’t go beyond that, and if we don’t think about them critically occasionally, maybe the drug analogy is perfect… We not only use them as a drug fix (as TMcK said), but we become addicted to them. And worse yet, the doctrine morphs into something the opposite of what we believed it was right before our eyes — and unfortunately often without us noticing it.
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With this post I was very happy that Thot reaffirmed that he understood what I was actually trying to convey and yet he also takes Ton’s bent on the subject that doctrines can turn against our selves if they become indoctrination. Ton Follows with:
44. ton - April 6, 2010
“…the problem is hardly ever in the doctrine but in the way it is lived out. We are after all, still trying to be human!”
i strongly disagree that “the problem is hardly ever in the doctrine.” where you get all tangled up is in the “trying” – do you imagine that you’ll get it all figured out at some point down the road?
to simply be a human being… imagine that.
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This is another critical point in the conversation. Elena is trying to get out of it not seeing any positive movement in Ton but Ton is convinced of his position and doesn’t want to let Elena go. His tone here is clearly aggressive:
– do you imagine that you’ll get it all figured out at some point down the road?
to simply be a human being… imagine that.
What is so significant about this tone is that he begins to assume a clear position of superiority. He uses Elena’s statement that supports Thot’s reaffirmation of her statements that the challenge is for individuals to not allow for humanism to become a doctrine and in so doing, trying to be more human, to turn it against her and state that her problem is that she’s still trying to be human.
Ton:– do you imagine that you’ll get it all figured out at some point down the road?
to simply be a human being… imagine that.
The tone is clearly: stupid, mentally sick Elena who hasn’t figured out that she’s already human and is trying to figure it out still, imagine that, you retarded fool!
But he’s such an expert he leaves it implied but strongly asserts himself as having a position of superiority and Elena an inferior one: Elena can’t figure it out. What can’t Elena figure out? He’ll never tell us. He’ll always simply imply it and sustain his whole argument on the fact that he knows something that Elena doesn’t know but that he is not willing to share it because he is not there to help Elena.
What is he therefore then? What is Ton’s real objective in this whole conversation?
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